.....IF ONE REPLACES THE BACK UP LITE with a LED @ $24.00 each retail the lite could be on for 2 weeks without battery drain to speak of....if one uses a motion detector and a LED lite from an alarm system there is never a problem with the nite lite system....my alarm systems are all low voltage and work really well!...the seeker head is about $12.00 retail-wholesale is 60% off around here.....interestingly enough if a car following too closely triggers the lite...it might have a rather surprising effect of causing the car to get off your back bumper also....just a thought of course.......commercial alarm systems are very well made and rather cheap these days......geofkaye and the Rivercity Group in cincinshitty Ohio with about 20 inches of snow.....
Stealth Camper Build Thread
- Thread starter Ran D. St. Clair
- Start date
-
- Tags
- truck
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
Plumbers Rule
After installing my propane delivery system, I have a renewed appreciation for plumbers, but crack and all.
My primary concern was to design and build a safe propane distribution system that would stand up to long term vibration and not develop leaks, especially not leaks into the enclosed spaces like the living quarters. I figure a small leak into a well ventilated space, like under the truck, won’t do much except waste propane. As long as it can’t accumulate and find an ignition source I probably won’t blow myself up. A second concern is not to feed a vehicle fire that might get started from some other source. Of course, perfect safety isn’t an option. I do have other dangerous things in the truck like gasoline, diesel, etc.
Your typical home propane or natural gas installation involves hard piping to the vicinity of the appliance, and then about 5 feet of flexible stainless steel accordion tubing. That way they can plumb the house for a wide range of possible appliances and then you can hook up whatever you need. The long length of flexible tubing allows for a service loop, so you can plumb the dryer (or whatever) and then slide it into place with the extra tubing looped behind where you can’t easily see it or get to it.
I don’t like the idea of using that technique for an RV application. I am concerned that the long loop of flexible tubing will bounce, and possibly resonate with the road vibration, and eventually work harden and crack. I have similar, but smaller concerns with the solid copper tubing that is sometimes used with flare connections. I am using both the stainless steel flexible tubing and the soft copper tubing in my installation, but with special consideration for these concerns.
I decided to use heavy steel threaded pipe to connect to the appliances, in my case, the heater, range, and toilet. The heater for example comes with female thread for a 1/8” ID pipe that sticks straight down out of the bottom of the unit. Since it is mounted essentially on the floor, I can just drill a hole in the floor, screw in a section of pipe that extends through the floor and set it in place.
The range is plumbed in a similar manner except that I needed a combination of fittings to relocate the bottom facing 3/8” I.D female threaded coupling to miss a floor joist. Once the range is bolted in place I can insert the pipe through the floor from underneath the truck and then plumb it from there. In both cases I made sure that there was clearance between the pipe and the hole in thefloor so that any slight movement of the appliance would not stress the pipe or the joints. I will fill that gap with foam rubber insulation to reduce air intrusion later.
The toilet is a little different since it has a solid but soft copper tube with a compression fitting that comes out the back. I mentioned in earlier posts that I am not happy with how that pipe is supported even internal to the toilet so I added brackets to keep the internal regulator from bouncing around. In this case I brought hard steel pipe up through the floor where it is solidly mounted. I then used the appropriate brass fittings to connect to the shut off valve that comes with the toilet. From there it goes through the compression fitting and the soft copper pipe into the toilet itself. All of these appliances are firmly mounted to the floor, or in the case of the heater to the wall.
Once under the truck, there is a short length (about 1 foot) of the stainless steel, plastic coated, flexible accordion pipe that connects the appliances to the main distribution pipe. The idea is to mechanically decouple the main distribution piping from the individual appliances. I don’t want any heavy weights or long lever arms attached to the appliances that would put stress on any of the pipes or joints or the internal regulators. It would also be very difficult to get everything to line up perfectly if it were all hard piped, so the flexible tubing allows some dimensional slop and simplifies the design and installation.
By keeping the flexible tubing short and well supported, it is less likely to bounce, work harden, and crack. Also, If I should ever develop a small leak under the truck, the propane will just waft away, never reaching the concentration required to burn. Propane needs to be between 2.15% and 9.6% of the total propane/air mixture in order to be combustible.
My generator bay holds my two standard 5 gallon propane tanks, of the sort you would typically see used on a home barbeque. I am only using one tank at a time, so the other tank is just a spare. I am not crazy about having the propane in the same bay with a running generator, but there is no logical problem with it. The bay has a large filtered air inlet in the floor to provide cooling air to the generator. Propane gas is about 1 ½ times heavier than air, so any leak within the bay will drain out the large hole, hopefully before reaching an explosive concentration. When the generator is running, it could provide an ignition source, but the generator also pumps a large quantity of air through the generator bay for its own cooling. The propane leak would have to be massive in order to reach a combustible mixture.
I am using a standard barbeque style regulator that is connected to the propane tank. I have been warned that these regulators are for low volume use only, but fortunately all of my appliances require a low volume of propane. The regulator comes with a short length of rubber hose, which allows me to connect to either of my two tanks. I do not have any fancy system for disconnecting one tank while maintaining a continuous supply of propane from the other, at least not yet. The rubber hose has a flare connection which connects to a ¼ turn ball valve, and is hard mounted through the side of the steel bay.
Immediately on the back side of the steel bay is what amounts to a propane fuse. If a pipe should ever break and allow a free flow of propane, this safety valve will close and shut off the flow. It’s a clever magnetic technology, available at any home improvement store, and not even expensive. From there it goes through another short length of flexible stainless steel plastic coated accordion tubing to the main distribution piping.
The main distribution pipe is all standard ½” steel threaded “black” pipe. For some reason I don’t fully understand, I was told not to use galvanized pipe, but the availability of some fittings and lengths may dictate otherwise. I won’t bother with the details, as your installation will obviously be different, but there are a few things I learned. Don’t try to use 3/8”, ¼” or even 1/8” steel pipe except at the ends of the run where you might need to adapt to whatever the appliance requires. I would be concerned about the resistance to flow if you had to go very far, but beyond that, ½” pipe and fittings are just more available.
The distribution pipe is strapped to every floor joist and about every 18” when running along the underside of the wooden floor. I used standard straps for electrical conduit with wooden spacers where needed.
I marked the location of all the appliances and gas lines on the floor of the truck and then drew in all the piping in between. That helped to visualize the whole thing, at least in 2 dimensions. In some cases it was necessary to test fit various end sections in order to get an accurate measurement for the pieces in between. It took about 5 trips to the hardware store to figure out the best combination of pipe, couplers, etc., and I will admit to having a few pieces left over.
Don’t forget to allow for the change in length as you tighten the various fittings. Also, don’t forget to allow clearance for the next elbow, or whatever, to spin 360 degrees when it is installed. Sometimes it is very difficult to get a wrench where you need it, and sometimes you have to really think about the order of operations in order to get it done. It’s a 3D puzzle with multiple solutions. Some involve more swearing than others though.
All that planning paid off, because once I began the install, it was done in about 8 hours, with no real surprises. It can be quite a challenge to get the piping into place. I used standard lengths of pipe and nothing longer than 30” so I could work it into place above the truck frame.
The night before the install I used a wire brush to clean all the male pipe threads and then cleaned all the pipes and fittings with soap and water to remove any protective oil. Warning, pipe threads can be sharp.
I used TFE Paste pipe thread compound. You can also use Teflon tape, though I gather you need to use the yellow stuff for gas lines, not the white stuff that you would use for water lines. I am not sure what the difference is though. The TFE paste can be messy and more than once I touched the gooped up threads to something rusty or dirty, and had to clean the threads and reapply. It helps to have a roll of paper towels under the truck when installing pipe.
I leak tested the whole thing with soapy water when it was done. I actually did find one flare fitting that needed to be tightened. I hadn’t tightened that one fitting as much as I would normally because the heater was only installed temporarily for testing.
Two of my flexible pipe sections are literally within a stone’s throw of the left rear tires. I will be making some loose fitting aluminum covers to protect them.
I would be very interested in hearing comments from any “real” plumbers out there. I do my best to think about what will be correct and safe, but I don’t claim to know the various codes or how they apply to an RV application.
As always, pictures are available under keyword “Stealth”.
To be continued….
After installing my propane delivery system, I have a renewed appreciation for plumbers, but crack and all.
My primary concern was to design and build a safe propane distribution system that would stand up to long term vibration and not develop leaks, especially not leaks into the enclosed spaces like the living quarters. I figure a small leak into a well ventilated space, like under the truck, won’t do much except waste propane. As long as it can’t accumulate and find an ignition source I probably won’t blow myself up. A second concern is not to feed a vehicle fire that might get started from some other source. Of course, perfect safety isn’t an option. I do have other dangerous things in the truck like gasoline, diesel, etc.
Your typical home propane or natural gas installation involves hard piping to the vicinity of the appliance, and then about 5 feet of flexible stainless steel accordion tubing. That way they can plumb the house for a wide range of possible appliances and then you can hook up whatever you need. The long length of flexible tubing allows for a service loop, so you can plumb the dryer (or whatever) and then slide it into place with the extra tubing looped behind where you can’t easily see it or get to it.
I don’t like the idea of using that technique for an RV application. I am concerned that the long loop of flexible tubing will bounce, and possibly resonate with the road vibration, and eventually work harden and crack. I have similar, but smaller concerns with the solid copper tubing that is sometimes used with flare connections. I am using both the stainless steel flexible tubing and the soft copper tubing in my installation, but with special consideration for these concerns.
I decided to use heavy steel threaded pipe to connect to the appliances, in my case, the heater, range, and toilet. The heater for example comes with female thread for a 1/8” ID pipe that sticks straight down out of the bottom of the unit. Since it is mounted essentially on the floor, I can just drill a hole in the floor, screw in a section of pipe that extends through the floor and set it in place.
The range is plumbed in a similar manner except that I needed a combination of fittings to relocate the bottom facing 3/8” I.D female threaded coupling to miss a floor joist. Once the range is bolted in place I can insert the pipe through the floor from underneath the truck and then plumb it from there. In both cases I made sure that there was clearance between the pipe and the hole in thefloor so that any slight movement of the appliance would not stress the pipe or the joints. I will fill that gap with foam rubber insulation to reduce air intrusion later.
The toilet is a little different since it has a solid but soft copper tube with a compression fitting that comes out the back. I mentioned in earlier posts that I am not happy with how that pipe is supported even internal to the toilet so I added brackets to keep the internal regulator from bouncing around. In this case I brought hard steel pipe up through the floor where it is solidly mounted. I then used the appropriate brass fittings to connect to the shut off valve that comes with the toilet. From there it goes through the compression fitting and the soft copper pipe into the toilet itself. All of these appliances are firmly mounted to the floor, or in the case of the heater to the wall.
Once under the truck, there is a short length (about 1 foot) of the stainless steel, plastic coated, flexible accordion pipe that connects the appliances to the main distribution pipe. The idea is to mechanically decouple the main distribution piping from the individual appliances. I don’t want any heavy weights or long lever arms attached to the appliances that would put stress on any of the pipes or joints or the internal regulators. It would also be very difficult to get everything to line up perfectly if it were all hard piped, so the flexible tubing allows some dimensional slop and simplifies the design and installation.
By keeping the flexible tubing short and well supported, it is less likely to bounce, work harden, and crack. Also, If I should ever develop a small leak under the truck, the propane will just waft away, never reaching the concentration required to burn. Propane needs to be between 2.15% and 9.6% of the total propane/air mixture in order to be combustible.
My generator bay holds my two standard 5 gallon propane tanks, of the sort you would typically see used on a home barbeque. I am only using one tank at a time, so the other tank is just a spare. I am not crazy about having the propane in the same bay with a running generator, but there is no logical problem with it. The bay has a large filtered air inlet in the floor to provide cooling air to the generator. Propane gas is about 1 ½ times heavier than air, so any leak within the bay will drain out the large hole, hopefully before reaching an explosive concentration. When the generator is running, it could provide an ignition source, but the generator also pumps a large quantity of air through the generator bay for its own cooling. The propane leak would have to be massive in order to reach a combustible mixture.
I am using a standard barbeque style regulator that is connected to the propane tank. I have been warned that these regulators are for low volume use only, but fortunately all of my appliances require a low volume of propane. The regulator comes with a short length of rubber hose, which allows me to connect to either of my two tanks. I do not have any fancy system for disconnecting one tank while maintaining a continuous supply of propane from the other, at least not yet. The rubber hose has a flare connection which connects to a ¼ turn ball valve, and is hard mounted through the side of the steel bay.
Immediately on the back side of the steel bay is what amounts to a propane fuse. If a pipe should ever break and allow a free flow of propane, this safety valve will close and shut off the flow. It’s a clever magnetic technology, available at any home improvement store, and not even expensive. From there it goes through another short length of flexible stainless steel plastic coated accordion tubing to the main distribution piping.
The main distribution pipe is all standard ½” steel threaded “black” pipe. For some reason I don’t fully understand, I was told not to use galvanized pipe, but the availability of some fittings and lengths may dictate otherwise. I won’t bother with the details, as your installation will obviously be different, but there are a few things I learned. Don’t try to use 3/8”, ¼” or even 1/8” steel pipe except at the ends of the run where you might need to adapt to whatever the appliance requires. I would be concerned about the resistance to flow if you had to go very far, but beyond that, ½” pipe and fittings are just more available.
The distribution pipe is strapped to every floor joist and about every 18” when running along the underside of the wooden floor. I used standard straps for electrical conduit with wooden spacers where needed.
I marked the location of all the appliances and gas lines on the floor of the truck and then drew in all the piping in between. That helped to visualize the whole thing, at least in 2 dimensions. In some cases it was necessary to test fit various end sections in order to get an accurate measurement for the pieces in between. It took about 5 trips to the hardware store to figure out the best combination of pipe, couplers, etc., and I will admit to having a few pieces left over.
Don’t forget to allow for the change in length as you tighten the various fittings. Also, don’t forget to allow clearance for the next elbow, or whatever, to spin 360 degrees when it is installed. Sometimes it is very difficult to get a wrench where you need it, and sometimes you have to really think about the order of operations in order to get it done. It’s a 3D puzzle with multiple solutions. Some involve more swearing than others though.
All that planning paid off, because once I began the install, it was done in about 8 hours, with no real surprises. It can be quite a challenge to get the piping into place. I used standard lengths of pipe and nothing longer than 30” so I could work it into place above the truck frame.
The night before the install I used a wire brush to clean all the male pipe threads and then cleaned all the pipes and fittings with soap and water to remove any protective oil. Warning, pipe threads can be sharp.
I used TFE Paste pipe thread compound. You can also use Teflon tape, though I gather you need to use the yellow stuff for gas lines, not the white stuff that you would use for water lines. I am not sure what the difference is though. The TFE paste can be messy and more than once I touched the gooped up threads to something rusty or dirty, and had to clean the threads and reapply. It helps to have a roll of paper towels under the truck when installing pipe.
I leak tested the whole thing with soapy water when it was done. I actually did find one flare fitting that needed to be tightened. I hadn’t tightened that one fitting as much as I would normally because the heater was only installed temporarily for testing.
Two of my flexible pipe sections are literally within a stone’s throw of the left rear tires. I will be making some loose fitting aluminum covers to protect them.
I would be very interested in hearing comments from any “real” plumbers out there. I do my best to think about what will be correct and safe, but I don’t claim to know the various codes or how they apply to an RV application.
As always, pictures are available under keyword “Stealth”.
To be continued….
Aluminum next to the wheel... might as well use tin foil cuz if one of those tires disintegrates it'll take out everything thats not steel. I'd make a piece that bolts in place. Vote #2 for black pipe only.
Sounds like a great project. Preplanning and fabricating are always fun.
Sounds like a great project. Preplanning and fabricating are always fun.
...." F " PROPANE. ONCE IS ENOUGH TO LEARN NOT TO DEAL WITH THAT AGAIN....SOMETHING ABOUT THAT "WOOF" SOUND THAT STILL UPSETS ME WHEN I HEAR IT........ELECTRICITY-ELECTRICITY-ELECTRICITY.......BUT THAT IS JUST ME....geofkaye and the Rivercity Girlz......
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
My Platinum Cat is one cool heater
It took one day less than forever, but I finally got my propane heater. I ordered my Platinum Cat heater from A & L Enterprises, back on 8/18/09. It seems A & L stands for Arnie Lind, who is a very nice guy, but also a bit of a one man band.
I got my heater on 12/1 and realized that I had ordered the wrong one. It was the larger size and my design was based on the smaller one. It was entirely my mistake, not Arnie’s fault. Fortunately Arnie was willing to work with me and exchange the heater for the smaller one. I sent the heater back, and my correct heater, the 3P12B, arrived on 2/18/10. To be fair, I told Arnie that I wasn’t in any rush. Of course I figured that might slow things by a week or two, not a couple of months. All is well that ends well though. I have the heater now and it looks and works great.
I really like the idea of this sort of heater. It’s very efficient, and I think very safe for a propane heater. There are lots of catalytic heaters in the world, but this one is different. It has a blower that pulls in combustion air and forces the exhaust out a small 1 1/2” ABS pipe. It does not use up all the oxygen in the room, nor does it fill the room with combustion gasses.
It’s a very small package, only 14” high, by 12” wide, by 6” deep, not counting the exhaust pipe.
My little unit is rated at 3000 BTU maximum, which is roughly equivalent to 750W. It is recommended for up to 100 square feet, but of course that depends heavily on how well insulated the space is. My living quarters are almost exactly 100 square feet, and very well insulated. I also don’t expect to spend any significant time in places where it freezes.
The heat is pure radiant. It “shines” on the surfaces opposite the heater and they in turn warm the air. Wall space is at a premium in my truck, so I mounted it under the desk top in the computer nook. If I am working at the computer with the heat on it will be shining on my feet and legs, or at least just to the side of my legs. That suites me fine, as when I get cold it is my feet that get really cold. If I can keep my feet warm then nothing else seems to matter. I have a similar size electric heater under my desk at work for that very reason.
The unit itself is very well designed and made. It may be hand assembled by one guy but it was clearly designed for reasonably high volume manufacturing. I can appreciate that whoever designed it knew what he was doing and took the time to do it right.
It only requires propane and 12V to operate. The propane consumption is rated at 34 hours per gallon at full tilt. I expect it will use a lot less in my application. The current consumption is 5A (at 12V) for 2 minutes to start and then less than 0.5A continuous to run the blower while it is on. It has an effective thermostat so I won’t need to turn it on and off manually all the time. It also has timers and safety interlocks to run the blower for a time after the thermostat turns off and to prevent the flow of gas without the blower being on.
My one minor disappointment is that it draws combustion air from the room. That implies that I am drawing in cold outside make up air which has to be heated just to get it up to the temperature of the inside air, let alone to warm the inside of the truck. I suppose the good news is that I will never suffocate in the truck when it is running because I will be getting a constant influx of fresh air, and not just the air to support combustion, but also the replacement air for what is blown overboard with the exhaust.
In my truck the make up air vents are in the floor, which means I will have a pool of cold air down by my feet when the heater is running. I don’t like cold feet (grumble). I added a filtered air inlet directly under the heater so hopefully most of the inlet air will come through there, but I can’t absolutely prevent inlet air from coming in the other floor vents. Those other vents have closable registers, but they don’t seal perfectly. It’s not my idea of an ideal design, but it will have to do.
I wanted to make sure that my heater exhaust doesn’t find its way back into the truck. The heater exhaust is down through the floor of the truck right next to the make up air inlet. Hot air rises, so it would easily find its way back inside. My solution was to pipe the heater exhaust through the side skirt to the outside of the truck below floor level. That way the warm exhaust will rise and drift away from the truck. I used a standard small sink drain to make a nice looking outlet and connected it up with standard plumbing fittings.
I was a little concerned about using ABS pipe for the exhaust, but I needn’t have been. When the heater is running flat out the exhaust gasses are barely warm. I am impressed by the efficiency that implies.
Arnie has an excellent web site that explains it all better than I could. It can be found at:
http://www.ventedcatheater.com/index.html
The price was $450 plus $20 shipping, or at least it would have been if I hadn’t screwed up the order. The larger 6P12B unit is about $550 plus shipping and is about twice the size with almost twice the heating capacity.
It remains to be seen how I will like the heater after long use, but so far I like it just fine.
To be continued….
It took one day less than forever, but I finally got my propane heater. I ordered my Platinum Cat heater from A & L Enterprises, back on 8/18/09. It seems A & L stands for Arnie Lind, who is a very nice guy, but also a bit of a one man band.
I got my heater on 12/1 and realized that I had ordered the wrong one. It was the larger size and my design was based on the smaller one. It was entirely my mistake, not Arnie’s fault. Fortunately Arnie was willing to work with me and exchange the heater for the smaller one. I sent the heater back, and my correct heater, the 3P12B, arrived on 2/18/10. To be fair, I told Arnie that I wasn’t in any rush. Of course I figured that might slow things by a week or two, not a couple of months. All is well that ends well though. I have the heater now and it looks and works great.
I really like the idea of this sort of heater. It’s very efficient, and I think very safe for a propane heater. There are lots of catalytic heaters in the world, but this one is different. It has a blower that pulls in combustion air and forces the exhaust out a small 1 1/2” ABS pipe. It does not use up all the oxygen in the room, nor does it fill the room with combustion gasses.
It’s a very small package, only 14” high, by 12” wide, by 6” deep, not counting the exhaust pipe.
My little unit is rated at 3000 BTU maximum, which is roughly equivalent to 750W. It is recommended for up to 100 square feet, but of course that depends heavily on how well insulated the space is. My living quarters are almost exactly 100 square feet, and very well insulated. I also don’t expect to spend any significant time in places where it freezes.
The heat is pure radiant. It “shines” on the surfaces opposite the heater and they in turn warm the air. Wall space is at a premium in my truck, so I mounted it under the desk top in the computer nook. If I am working at the computer with the heat on it will be shining on my feet and legs, or at least just to the side of my legs. That suites me fine, as when I get cold it is my feet that get really cold. If I can keep my feet warm then nothing else seems to matter. I have a similar size electric heater under my desk at work for that very reason.
The unit itself is very well designed and made. It may be hand assembled by one guy but it was clearly designed for reasonably high volume manufacturing. I can appreciate that whoever designed it knew what he was doing and took the time to do it right.
It only requires propane and 12V to operate. The propane consumption is rated at 34 hours per gallon at full tilt. I expect it will use a lot less in my application. The current consumption is 5A (at 12V) for 2 minutes to start and then less than 0.5A continuous to run the blower while it is on. It has an effective thermostat so I won’t need to turn it on and off manually all the time. It also has timers and safety interlocks to run the blower for a time after the thermostat turns off and to prevent the flow of gas without the blower being on.
My one minor disappointment is that it draws combustion air from the room. That implies that I am drawing in cold outside make up air which has to be heated just to get it up to the temperature of the inside air, let alone to warm the inside of the truck. I suppose the good news is that I will never suffocate in the truck when it is running because I will be getting a constant influx of fresh air, and not just the air to support combustion, but also the replacement air for what is blown overboard with the exhaust.
In my truck the make up air vents are in the floor, which means I will have a pool of cold air down by my feet when the heater is running. I don’t like cold feet (grumble). I added a filtered air inlet directly under the heater so hopefully most of the inlet air will come through there, but I can’t absolutely prevent inlet air from coming in the other floor vents. Those other vents have closable registers, but they don’t seal perfectly. It’s not my idea of an ideal design, but it will have to do.
I wanted to make sure that my heater exhaust doesn’t find its way back into the truck. The heater exhaust is down through the floor of the truck right next to the make up air inlet. Hot air rises, so it would easily find its way back inside. My solution was to pipe the heater exhaust through the side skirt to the outside of the truck below floor level. That way the warm exhaust will rise and drift away from the truck. I used a standard small sink drain to make a nice looking outlet and connected it up with standard plumbing fittings.
I was a little concerned about using ABS pipe for the exhaust, but I needn’t have been. When the heater is running flat out the exhaust gasses are barely warm. I am impressed by the efficiency that implies.
Arnie has an excellent web site that explains it all better than I could. It can be found at:
http://www.ventedcatheater.com/index.html
The price was $450 plus $20 shipping, or at least it would have been if I hadn’t screwed up the order. The larger 6P12B unit is about $550 plus shipping and is about twice the size with almost twice the heating capacity.
It remains to be seen how I will like the heater after long use, but so far I like it just fine.
To be continued….
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
Trust But Verify (Is that an oxymoron or what?)
I built my electrical monitoring system. It has 4 each 3 1/2 digit LCD (Liquid Crystal) displays that continuously monitor and display the following:
1. House Battery DC Voltage (12V Nominal)
2. House Battery DC Current (Total current irrespective of where it goes)
3. Battery Charger Current
4. Accessory Load Current (DC loads via the two each 12VDC branch circuits including lights, fan, heater, refrigerator, and any other 12V DC appliances)
I did not feel the need to measure the AC current or voltage. The AC voltage had better be 120V otherwise it is broken. The AC current will be roughly proportional to the DC current into the inverter. If I want, I can calculate that by subtracting the battery charger current and the Accessory Load current from the battery current.
The more important issue is my battery current, which gives me a direct idea of how long my batteries will last, or how long I will have to run the generator to charge them up again. I set the polarity on the battery current so positive is current going into the batteries (charging) and negative is current going out of the batteries (discharging). The battery charger current and accessory load current displays are both set for positive only readings since the current will only ever flow in one direction.
The 3 1/2 digit LCD Digital Panel Meters I used are available from MCM Electronics:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8100
They draw very little current (1mA) and the digits are over 1/2” high for easy reading. They only cost $6.79 each plus shipping.
The displays read from -1999 to +1990 and you can put the decimal point wherever you want. The full scale reading for the battery voltage is set to 19.99V though it will clearly never get that high. The full scale house battery current is set to 199.9A which is theoretically possible. Likewise the battery charger current is set for 199.9A, though it will never go above 90A. The Accessory load current is set to 19.99A full scale, and the actual current could theoretically exceed that value, but it seemed a better choice than 199.9A which it will never even get close to.
I realize that most of you aren’t electronics engineers, so I won’t bore you with every technical detail. It might be useful to have an idea what is possible though, and to know that it is actually fairly easy to do.
Measuring the battery voltage is really simple, a 9V regulator chip, a couple of resistors, and a pot (variable resistor) for calibration. You can probably buy this ready made somewhere, though I didn’t research where, and just hook it up to the battery with a couple of wires.
Measuring current is a little more challenging, especially really large currents like 200A coming out of your battery. There is a simple way to do it though. The big heavy 2/0 wire from the battery positive to the inverter is also effectively a resistor measuring 0.00028 ohms. Put another way, with 200A running through it, it will have 56.6mV (0.0566V) across it. All I did was amplify that voltage to make the display read 200A There is no need for special current measuring resistors, or expensive inductive couplers, the wires that are already there will do the job. To be fair, this method may not be super accurate, but I don’t need super accurate. The other current measurements were made using the same technique, but the scale factors are different.
The system requires 8 wires from various points like the battery positive terminal, ground, Inverter positive terminal, etc. None of these wires carries any significant current so they can be as small as is convenient.
I will post pictures and schematics under key word “Stealth” but for the moment the web site won’t let me log on. If anyone knows how to fix that please let me know, because I have tried all the normal things.
To be continued….
I built my electrical monitoring system. It has 4 each 3 1/2 digit LCD (Liquid Crystal) displays that continuously monitor and display the following:
1. House Battery DC Voltage (12V Nominal)
2. House Battery DC Current (Total current irrespective of where it goes)
3. Battery Charger Current
4. Accessory Load Current (DC loads via the two each 12VDC branch circuits including lights, fan, heater, refrigerator, and any other 12V DC appliances)
I did not feel the need to measure the AC current or voltage. The AC voltage had better be 120V otherwise it is broken. The AC current will be roughly proportional to the DC current into the inverter. If I want, I can calculate that by subtracting the battery charger current and the Accessory Load current from the battery current.
The more important issue is my battery current, which gives me a direct idea of how long my batteries will last, or how long I will have to run the generator to charge them up again. I set the polarity on the battery current so positive is current going into the batteries (charging) and negative is current going out of the batteries (discharging). The battery charger current and accessory load current displays are both set for positive only readings since the current will only ever flow in one direction.
The 3 1/2 digit LCD Digital Panel Meters I used are available from MCM Electronics:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8100
They draw very little current (1mA) and the digits are over 1/2” high for easy reading. They only cost $6.79 each plus shipping.
The displays read from -1999 to +1990 and you can put the decimal point wherever you want. The full scale reading for the battery voltage is set to 19.99V though it will clearly never get that high. The full scale house battery current is set to 199.9A which is theoretically possible. Likewise the battery charger current is set for 199.9A, though it will never go above 90A. The Accessory load current is set to 19.99A full scale, and the actual current could theoretically exceed that value, but it seemed a better choice than 199.9A which it will never even get close to.
I realize that most of you aren’t electronics engineers, so I won’t bore you with every technical detail. It might be useful to have an idea what is possible though, and to know that it is actually fairly easy to do.
Measuring the battery voltage is really simple, a 9V regulator chip, a couple of resistors, and a pot (variable resistor) for calibration. You can probably buy this ready made somewhere, though I didn’t research where, and just hook it up to the battery with a couple of wires.
Measuring current is a little more challenging, especially really large currents like 200A coming out of your battery. There is a simple way to do it though. The big heavy 2/0 wire from the battery positive to the inverter is also effectively a resistor measuring 0.00028 ohms. Put another way, with 200A running through it, it will have 56.6mV (0.0566V) across it. All I did was amplify that voltage to make the display read 200A There is no need for special current measuring resistors, or expensive inductive couplers, the wires that are already there will do the job. To be fair, this method may not be super accurate, but I don’t need super accurate. The other current measurements were made using the same technique, but the scale factors are different.
The system requires 8 wires from various points like the battery positive terminal, ground, Inverter positive terminal, etc. None of these wires carries any significant current so they can be as small as is convenient.
I will post pictures and schematics under key word “Stealth” but for the moment the web site won’t let me log on. If anyone knows how to fix that please let me know, because I have tried all the normal things.
To be continued….
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
First Year Anniversary (Paper is the traditional gift I believe)…
I wrote the check for my truck on 1/18/09, but I didn’t actually have the pink slip in my hand until 3/6/09. (It’s a long story that you’ve already read.) I didn’t really start work on this project until I got the pink slip, so I think I will call my first year anniversary 3/6/10.
I am now one full year into a 2 1/2 year project. So am I on schedule? Well there’s hope, but I really don’t believe in schedules. Things take as long as they will take and I am working on this as diligently as I want to. I might make my deadline, or it might slip, as these things often do. The truck itself could easily be ready by 6/1/11, but that doesn’t mean I will be. This is more than a Stealth Camper build. It is a move, a change in employment, and sort of a divorce all in one. Any one of those is a big time stresser and I am going to do them all.
Meanwhile, the truck itself. It’s about 60% done. I don’t know how I would measure or prove such a thing, but that is my guess.
The truck is fully roadworthy. That was almost a given when I bought it. The flaky starter motor and its 2 flaky friends are long gone. The leaky fuel line was replaced, and all general maintenance performed.
The outer shell is weather tight. The doors, vents, chimneys, etc. are all in place. Everything outside of the living quarters is complete.
I have a fully functional and tested electrical system, both AC and DC, which implies generator, batteries, inverter, battery charger, and everything else. There are a few outlets and appliances to hook up but that will have to wait until after the walls are closed up.
My propane distribution system has been installed and tested, including all of the appliances, meaning the range, heater, and toilet.
The next item on the agenda is to insulate the walls and ceilings. It shouldn’t be difficult but there are lots of odd shapes to fit the R-Max foam into, and then lots of gaps to fill with the injectable foam.
After that will come the plywood walls, ceiling, and finally the insulated floor. Then it will be time to finish and paint the walls and ceiling, and lay the vinyl flooring. All of that gets me to an empty living space, which is to say about 80% complete.
That just leaves building and finishing cabinets, which in my case is the same as building inner walls, bunk beds, countertops, and essentially all of the inner furnishings except for a couple of chairs.
I don’t know that there will ever be a truly final step, as these things tend to be tweaked and tuned forever, but the last big project to make the truck fully livable is to drop in the appliances, refrigerator, range, toilet and bedding. I already have all the appliances and they should all go in quickly if I have done my prep work correctly.
Finally, I will be able to take the truck to the DMV, or at least pictures of it, and try and get it re-registered as an RV. If the state of California won’t let me then I may try to do it in Texas because my legal residence will be wherever I want it to be.
That just leaves all the really scary stuff, like shutting down my life, getting rid of most all of my stuff, etc. It’s like moving into a tiny little apartment. Did I mention that I really hate moving? It’s ironic that I will be doing nothing but in a year and a half, or two…
To be continued….
I wrote the check for my truck on 1/18/09, but I didn’t actually have the pink slip in my hand until 3/6/09. (It’s a long story that you’ve already read.) I didn’t really start work on this project until I got the pink slip, so I think I will call my first year anniversary 3/6/10.
I am now one full year into a 2 1/2 year project. So am I on schedule? Well there’s hope, but I really don’t believe in schedules. Things take as long as they will take and I am working on this as diligently as I want to. I might make my deadline, or it might slip, as these things often do. The truck itself could easily be ready by 6/1/11, but that doesn’t mean I will be. This is more than a Stealth Camper build. It is a move, a change in employment, and sort of a divorce all in one. Any one of those is a big time stresser and I am going to do them all.
Meanwhile, the truck itself. It’s about 60% done. I don’t know how I would measure or prove such a thing, but that is my guess.
The truck is fully roadworthy. That was almost a given when I bought it. The flaky starter motor and its 2 flaky friends are long gone. The leaky fuel line was replaced, and all general maintenance performed.
The outer shell is weather tight. The doors, vents, chimneys, etc. are all in place. Everything outside of the living quarters is complete.
I have a fully functional and tested electrical system, both AC and DC, which implies generator, batteries, inverter, battery charger, and everything else. There are a few outlets and appliances to hook up but that will have to wait until after the walls are closed up.
My propane distribution system has been installed and tested, including all of the appliances, meaning the range, heater, and toilet.
The next item on the agenda is to insulate the walls and ceilings. It shouldn’t be difficult but there are lots of odd shapes to fit the R-Max foam into, and then lots of gaps to fill with the injectable foam.
After that will come the plywood walls, ceiling, and finally the insulated floor. Then it will be time to finish and paint the walls and ceiling, and lay the vinyl flooring. All of that gets me to an empty living space, which is to say about 80% complete.
That just leaves building and finishing cabinets, which in my case is the same as building inner walls, bunk beds, countertops, and essentially all of the inner furnishings except for a couple of chairs.
I don’t know that there will ever be a truly final step, as these things tend to be tweaked and tuned forever, but the last big project to make the truck fully livable is to drop in the appliances, refrigerator, range, toilet and bedding. I already have all the appliances and they should all go in quickly if I have done my prep work correctly.
Finally, I will be able to take the truck to the DMV, or at least pictures of it, and try and get it re-registered as an RV. If the state of California won’t let me then I may try to do it in Texas because my legal residence will be wherever I want it to be.
That just leaves all the really scary stuff, like shutting down my life, getting rid of most all of my stuff, etc. It’s like moving into a tiny little apartment. Did I mention that I really hate moving? It’s ironic that I will be doing nothing but in a year and a half, or two…
To be continued….
RaceItAgain
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2009
- Messages
- 25
Congratulations on your First Year Anniversary your project and how you are going about it is very interesting keep up the good work.
Wow the monitoring system looks very interesting. Most of us are not electronics engineers how about a drawing and some pictures. We would also like a parts list with part numbers. It had to take shunts and the right gauge wire .Could we have some more info please.
Wow the monitoring system looks very interesting. Most of us are not electronics engineers how about a drawing and some pictures. We would also like a parts list with part numbers. It had to take shunts and the right gauge wire .Could we have some more info please.
Bob86ZZ4
Senior Member
Rand, I don't do much boondocking. But sometimes I do. I've got 2 12v deep cycle batteries for the house. I've got a battery test switch on a little panel along with the switch to turn on my water pump and check my holding tank and propane levels. It just lights up some lights on a scale to tell me if the batteries are good or not. I've used a v.o.m. meter sometimes to get a more accurate idea of how low they are before turning on the generator to bring them back up. The truck has 3 12v truck batteries to start the generator and tractor motor. I bought a cheap thing that plugs into a cigarette lighter and has a lcd readout of battery voltage. I just use that once in awhile to see that the house batts don't get too low. I figure if they go down to about 11 volts I should charge them up? I've got a cigarette lighter socket that I put in above the nightstand in the bedroom so I can plug my cell phone charger or laptop (with small inverter) in. I think those lcd readouts you got look nice and thought about buying one to hook up to my house batteries. But why do they need 9v to run? That seems odd to me. Would they be much better than the cigarette plug thing I've got now? Should I not be letting the house batteries get that low before turning on the gen?
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
RaceItAgain, I would be happy to provide schematics, parts lists, etc. I have been trying to do so for general viewing on this site, but for some reason the photo gallery refuses to let me log in. I am trying to get that fixed through the normal channels, but in the mean time, if you want to PM me with your E-mail address I will send you the info that way.
BOb86ZZ4, The cheap LCD readout in the cigarette lighter is a fine idea. I don't know how accurate it is, but it is probably accurate enough. 11V is a little low. It depends on the exact battery type, but in general 11V is probably about 90% discharged. I know they are called "deep cycle" batteries, but for maximum life you should never go below about 40% of full charge.
The 9V regulator is needed because the so called 12V batteries can easily reach 14V when charging, and that is more than the specifications for the LED readout allow. The LED readout might tolerate it anyway, but as a conservitave design engineer I don't like to push specifications.
BOb86ZZ4, The cheap LCD readout in the cigarette lighter is a fine idea. I don't know how accurate it is, but it is probably accurate enough. 11V is a little low. It depends on the exact battery type, but in general 11V is probably about 90% discharged. I know they are called "deep cycle" batteries, but for maximum life you should never go below about 40% of full charge.
The 9V regulator is needed because the so called 12V batteries can easily reach 14V when charging, and that is more than the specifications for the LED readout allow. The LED readout might tolerate it anyway, but as a conservitave design engineer I don't like to push specifications.
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
BOb86ZZ4,
I just checked the specifications on my batteries. Your batteries are probably similar, but you should trust data from the manufacturer before believing this...
These voltage readings are for no load applied for at least 4 hours. The 4 hours part is a bit impractical, so lets at least specify no load.
Fully Charged - 12.8V or more.
75% Charged - 12.5V
50% Charged - 12.2V
25% Charged - 11.9V
Fully Discharged - 11.6V
Like I said, 11V is too low. You are killing your batteries a little bit every time you do that. Better to top them off every day if you can.
I just checked the specifications on my batteries. Your batteries are probably similar, but you should trust data from the manufacturer before believing this...
These voltage readings are for no load applied for at least 4 hours. The 4 hours part is a bit impractical, so lets at least specify no load.
Fully Charged - 12.8V or more.
75% Charged - 12.5V
50% Charged - 12.2V
25% Charged - 11.9V
Fully Discharged - 11.6V
Like I said, 11V is too low. You are killing your batteries a little bit every time you do that. Better to top them off every day if you can.
....one of these days I'm going to understand batteries-inverters-generation and alike....but i think it will be in my next life. Meanwhile I'll push that button and all things electrical come to life-no matter where/when or under what conditions...heat or cold....rain or snow...summer or winter.....I'm set! Even at $2.869 a gallon I can't even use all the electricity that the battery bank-inverter-and all the rest of the stuff electrical would cost me over the 7 year life span of my RV....much less thinking if there is enough juice to do whatever/whenever......I'm just not good at planning electrical usage.....I want it when I want it....dam I'm getting old. Ran D. you have given me a new perspective about things electrical.....maybe in the next life I will be more excited about those things....but I want to thank you for leading me through the maze.....your ability to teach/explain things electrical is most appreciated. thank you again for taking the time. Geof Kaye and the Rivercity Girls....
Bob86ZZ4
Senior Member
Oh my, I'm sure I've never run my batteries down that low. I was just guessing that would be a good time to charge them up. But, you've convinced me not to. I'll make sure to charge them up before 12.2v. The hard part is testing them with no load on them. The best way might be to wire a cigarette plug directly to the batteries. Then when I want to test the voltage switch off the main power to the house while testing. I'm not going to do that for 4 hours tho. Not worth rotting the food in the fridge just to see what the batteries are. I'm closer to GeofK on this. I've not done very much boondocking at all. I'm more of a K.O.A. guy than a state parks guy. Love the hookups and the wi-fi. My coach is also stored inside, climate controlled too. And always plugged in so the Iota charger/converter keeps all the batteries perfectly floating all winter. I've got a rotary switch to tie all 5 batteries together for that.
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
Geofkaye, Thank you for your kind words. I seem to recall you have done more than your share to provide usefull information on this forum as well.
All, The good folks who provide this forum (free of charge I might add) have fixed my access to the photo gallery, so I have added a number of new pictures related to the electrical monitoring system, propane distribution system, and Platinum Cat heater. As always, you can find them under keyword "Stealth".
All, The good folks who provide this forum (free of charge I might add) have fixed my access to the photo gallery, so I have added a number of new pictures related to the electrical monitoring system, propane distribution system, and Platinum Cat heater. As always, you can find them under keyword "Stealth".
BlizzND
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 300
Wow! its coming along! I just checked out all your pictures, they really show the amount of thought you put into each and every component. very nice work. Thanks for sharing the photos with us.
-blizz
...rand d and blizz have gone to extremes to show/explain to us their work and solutions to problems.....thank you guys-you make this forum the leading forum for TRUCK CONVERSIONS and all the spin offs that people think about when "the building bites"... after a person reads the forum and looks at the pix they have a good background or let me say the best background to start a build project.....geofkaye and the Rivercity Girls in rainy Cincinshitty Ohio....
Bob86ZZ4
Senior Member
Yes RanD, please tell us more about how you got the toilet set up in the driveway and got a turd in it and ran it through the cycle. That was a fun story. Hahahhahahaahah.
Gun, it's in one of the previous 17 pages of this thread. You've gotta scan back looking for it.
Gun, it's in one of the previous 17 pages of this thread. You've gotta scan back looking for it.
Ran D. St. Clair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 212
Gunilla, you want pages 12 and 13 for toilet info. I think you will find I shared both the good and the bad.
As for your question, "Was it worth it?", only time will tell. It was the only game in town as far as meeting my design requirements. Anything with a holding tank would not have worked for me, and the other good option, the Incinolet, requires way too much electrical energy. I have yet to live with the toilet for an extended period so I honestly can't say. I will have to finish the entire truck and live in it for a while first. That is still at least a year away. In the mean time $5K is a heck of a lot of money for a toilet. If it ultimately works as advertised, reliable with no smell, then it will have been worth it to me. I strongly suspect that the vast majority with different needs would find $5K too much to be worth it, though the Incinolet, at less than half the price is much more reasonable, if you have plenty of AC power.
As for your question, "Was it worth it?", only time will tell. It was the only game in town as far as meeting my design requirements. Anything with a holding tank would not have worked for me, and the other good option, the Incinolet, requires way too much electrical energy. I have yet to live with the toilet for an extended period so I honestly can't say. I will have to finish the entire truck and live in it for a while first. That is still at least a year away. In the mean time $5K is a heck of a lot of money for a toilet. If it ultimately works as advertised, reliable with no smell, then it will have been worth it to me. I strongly suspect that the vast majority with different needs would find $5K too much to be worth it, though the Incinolet, at less than half the price is much more reasonable, if you have plenty of AC power.
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