Stealth Camper Build Thread

[Ran D. St. Clair]

I have purchased 4 foam mattresses for the stealth camper even though I only needed 2. It's not entirely the sellers fault but the industry as a whole could benefit from some standard method for describing the general soft/firmness of the mattresses. The mattresses I bought all varied widely from somewhat too firm for my taste to way too hard for my taste. Then again, my preference for a soft mattress may be somewhat unusual, I don't know. I know I am a side sleeper and anything other than a really soft mattress eventually causes my shoulder joints to hurt. The best solution I came to was at this web site:

http://www.foamforyo...mMattresses.htm

They have lots of technical data here:

http://www.foamforyo...%20Foam%20Specs

But to be fair, none of that does you any good unless you have something to compare it to.

What eventually worked the best for me (though still not perfectly) was on this page:

http://www.foamforyo...oamMattress.htm

The standard grades of foam, which include "Standard Soft Foam", "Medium/Soft High Density", "Premium-Medium High Density", and "Luxury Firm" at least gave me a sense of scale. The descriptions that went with the grades were also somewhat more meaningful than what I found for most other on line type mattresses. For example, "STANDARD SOFT FOAM: This mattress is ideal for children, babies and lightweight adults. It has a soft feel depending on the weight of the sleeper." The typical description from other web sites is usually meaningless and self contradictory like, "wonderfully soft while firm and supportive...."

Even the Standard Soft Foam mattress wasn't as soft as I would have liked, but it was the softest I found and reasonably close to the mark. From there you can easily customize the feel with a mattress topper of some sort. In my case I bought a 1.5" thick memory foam topper from my local K-mart to get where I wanted to go. Something like that is close to $50 for a twin mattress so it’s not cheap. They also have soft polyurethane foam "egg crate" style toppers that are similar in firmness and closer to $10.

I will also mention that the mattress pad can make a big difference. By mattress pad I only mean the quilted top protective cover that fits over the mattress like a fitted sheet. It's not really so much of a pad as it is a protective cover. I say it makes a big difference because it can make the mattress feel significantly firmer (not so much softer as you might expect). Unless it is stretchy, it tends to distribute your weight over a wider patch of foam and you won't sink in as much. That is true even for a regular mattress pad, but is probably even more true for one that is intended to protect the mattress from liquids. (Not to be gross, but even adults sweat, not to mention other things...)

In my case I also have a 12V heated mattress pad, which is great for warming the bed very energy efficiently, but it also makes the bed feel firmer.

For those that don't already know, most of these foam mattresses come rolled up and highly compressed to make them easier to ship (which they are). Once you get them you pull them out of the vacuum pack bag, lay them out, and they expand to full size over the next 48 hours (mostly within an hour). The process does sometimes result in some dimensional variation of the finished product though. One of the mattresses I bought is 3" short (72" instead of 75") because the foam never fully recovered. That is probably more likely to be true for the softer grades of foam though. In fairness to the folks at Foam N' More, they were willing to work with me to cut the foam 3" extra long before stuffing it into the standard 75" mattress cover to compensate for this issue. Also in fairness, they should already have known this and should have compensated without me having to ask them to.

By the way, I think foam mattresses are great. It's possible to spend well over $1,000 on a mattress that is no more comfortable than a $150 foam mattress. My favorite foam mattress is now about 40 years old and aside from the cover being a bit faded it is still the most comfortable mattress I own. I don't know why people assume that foam mattresses are going to break down or become uneven just because they are cheap. That's not my experience anyway.

To be continued.

[Ran D. St. Clair]

After sleeping for a while on my “Standard Soft Foam” mattress from Foam N More I decided that it still wasn’t soft enough, at least not in the shoulder area. My son, who is a stomach or side sleeper, also complained that it was too firm when he tried it. I was out of options as far as buying a softer mattress so I decided to open it up and try modifying it. Since the mattress only cost about $137 to begin with I wasn’t risking much.

Somewhat to my surprise, it was easy and worked really well. The Foam N More mattresses come with a simple zippered cover, so it was easy to pull the cover back and expose the foam. I then lay down on the foam and sketched out the area I wanted to soften. It turns out to be a roughly T-shirt shaped area corresponding to my shoulders and rib cage.

The idea was to drill some holes through the mattress to remove foam and make it softer. I just happened to have a “Webster” with a thin walled tubular steel handle about 7/8” in diameter. I pulled the plastic end cap off and sharpened the tubing with my grinding wheel and used a file to remove the bur from the inside edge. I was then able to drill through the foam by pressing the tube into the foam and twisting. As a practical matter it would drill cleanly for the first inch or two and then tear out a roughly cone shaped chunk of foam for the rest. This suited me just fine as removing bigger chunks of foam meant having to drill fewer holes.

I drilled the holes every 6 inches or so and then lay down on the mattress to check the feel. I then added holes between the holes and rechecked the feel until I got what I wanted. I never got the sensation that I was laying down on a lumpy of “holey” mattress. Even though the mattress appears to be flat, there is a definite feeling of being cradled in a wide groove (which I actually like). Obviously you could drill holes throughout the entire mattress if you wanted it to be evenly softer.

If at some point I had gone too far, it would not have been difficult to stuff some of the foam plugs back into the holes, but I never felt the need to do that.

After about 20 minutes of drilling I was done. I zipped the cover back up and made the bed in the normal manner with a 1” soft egg crate foam topper, just because I already had it.

So far the testing is very nice. I got just what I wanted in the shoulder area and I also like the firmer feel in the hip area. For some reason a firmer surface in that area is better for my sciatica. (I must be getting old.)

I don’t expect that there will be any long term negative impact on the durability of the mattress, but it will take years to know for sure. In the mean time I finally have what I wanted and it didn’t even cost me any more money to get it.

Previously I could not have recommended any of the foam mattresses I bought on line. There was no way to know what any one person might want in terms of firmness, or what the mattress might provide. The ability to tailor the mattress after you receive it is a game changer. I suspect it is one of the reasons that the select comfort air mattresses are so popular. (I have one in my stix n bricks and mostly like it.)

The Select Comfort is really nice in that you can adjust the firmness even while you are laying on it, but it doesn’t allow you to independently adjust the shape. For example, when a Select comfort is set really soft it tends to sag down somewhat like a hammock. When set hard it tends to bulge upward in the middle. Regardless of the shape of the air mattress portion there is a separate shape and firmness for the foam boarder around the air mattress.

I am also beginning to realize that a flat shape isn’t necessarily desirable anyway. It is nice to sink into a stable groove where you can fully relax and not use even a tiny amount of tension to hold yourself in position. Traditionally beds are supposed to look flat to slightly mounded and a bed with a visible groove would look beat up or worn out. It’s only an aesthetic issue but aesthetics are important.

Beds and bedding are such a personal thing. You can’t really tell what you like by lying down on it for just 5 minutes. Even a night or two isn’t enough. I also think that there is a tendency to assume you know what you like based of what you have had in the past. You can’t know that you would like something different until you have lived with it for a while, and you will never get the chance to find out if you reject it out of hand because it is different.

I realize that most of you will never start carving on your mattress, it’s just too strange. On the other hand I can tell you that it is not that difficult or expensive. It’s really nice to get exactly what you want and sleep is such an important part of your life.

No, I have nothing to do with any mattress or bedding company. I just like being comfortable and sleeping. It’s all just interesting engineering to me, but with a rather immediate and personal payback.

[Nomadic Wolfy]

The price of solar panels can change daily, I'm always on the look out for something better then what I have, but to answer the questions:

1. Amazon.com: HQRP KIT (85 Watt Solar Panel 85W Power 12V Monocrystalline 12 Volt, Solar 10A Charge Power Controller / Regulator 12V / 24V 10 Amp) + HQRP Coaster: Automotive <--- That's what I started with. It's expensive. But it is Mono crystalline. It is well constructed, and I believe it will serve me well for a very long time.


Also, the panel by it's self has shot up in price since my purchase, and I doubt I will be going that route again. It's a great panel, and the charge controller works well. I recommend it for a newbie, or someone who's just looking for some extra juice with no fuss.

2. Solar Panels - Best Prices
I love this site, as you can see great deals can be found!

3. Canadian Solar 295w solar panel, CSI solar module 295w
If I had the cheese, I'd order 4 of these today.


I did not buy my current panel with much self control. I admit it was a Impulse buy, because I was sick of idling to bring my house batteries back up to 90%. (4*115 AH)

As we all know gas is super expensive.

Since I have installed the panel I haven't had to idle once for power.
Not one time. Even on cloudy days, It takes in enough juice for my vent fan to run 24/7 to keep my van cool, Plus a little left over. Between the panel and my normal driving habits the house batteries
have remained full, or nearly so since. I do not own a Genny at this time.

I did not post the size or manufacturer here, as following the link will provide all that information.

as of 3 weeks ago that panel by it's self was 294. SO you can see it has gone up in price quite a bit. (It is a China made product... I wasn't so thrilled about that...)


That's how solar is.

Be wary also that, sometimes in order to get the deal you have to order a minimum amount of panels. The panel I posted here (from DM solar) does not have that restriction. You can order just one.


Sorry it took so long to reply, have been busy working my tale off.

~N.W.~

[volvoman]

make sure you rotate front tires often. i think they say every 3000 or 6000 miles. the short turning radius will wear them out fast.

[Ran D. St. Clair]

It’s been over 18 months since my last post. My need to go full stealth never materialized, so the stealth camper has become a weekend or recreational camper. I did take one serious trip to Texas and back. Aside from 2 flat tires the stealth camper performed admirably. It turns out to be a fine driveway or curb camper, especially when plugged into a relatives extension cord.

In all that time I have learned a few things, and there are some things I would now do differently.

1. Replace your tires after 7 years, even if they look fine. Mine were about 10 years old and were not up to a long trip in the 105 degree west Texas heat. Fortunately I had replaced the front tires, just to be safe, and when the rear tires blew there was no damage, just a fun time in the heat waiting for roadside assistance. Coachnet is a fine roadside assistance provider. Also, metric BUDD wheel nuts are an uncommon size so buy and carry your own heavy duty sockets just in case the tow truck guy doesn’t have them.

2. I would not go with the incinerating toilet if I was doing this again, at least not the EcoJohn. I would probably go with something like this.
Waterless toilets, waterless toilet
It would have been far cheaper and probably better suited to my actual needs. Another good option would have been something similar to this.
wLOVEABLE LOO - Eco Toilet
These types of toilets can also be used in “bag and toss” mode which would probably be more practical for my application.
The EcoJohn puts out really nasty acrid fumes on the outside of the truck (up and out of the chimney) when it is boiling urine down. I can’t run the ceiling fan to blow up and out otherwise it backdrafts the toilet and fills the house with smoke. I can run the ceiling fan to blow air down into the house, but I have to take care not to park the truck so the ceiling fan is downwind of the toilet chimney, otherwise it pulls in the fumes. The toilet will also not successfully complete a burn cycle when driving, probably due to too much draft. It is also a pain to clean the ash from the fire box. It is not soft fluffy ash but more like gravel and hard chunks that have to be scrapped from the bottom of the fire box, and the access through the cleanout port is limited. Overall the toilet works, but there are better options for far less money.

3. The 4 burner propane stove/oven is not a good fit for my application. It makes a ton of heat inside my tiny living space and with the low ceiling the heat is trapped at face level. I also don’t use it very much, like almost never, so the space can be better used for something else. If I were doing it again I would install a small induction cook top and forget the oven. A good quality induction cook top puts almost all the heat into the pan/food, has very good temperature control, and boils water faster than a gas stove. It uses lots of electricity, just like a microwave, but I have the electrical system to handle it.

4. I need larger or more floor registers to provide makeup air with less restriction. The Max-air fan I have in the ceiling vent is great, and moves a lot of air, but my two registers in the floor are restricting the flow.

5. I added Airtabs Aerodynamic Fuel Economy Savers for Road Vehicles to the back of my box to improve fuel economy. I have no proof that they actually did anything so I can’t recommend them. I should have done a “coast down” test before and after installation but it’s too late now. Hopefully they were worth the money.

6. I had to swap out my Iota DLS-90, 90 amp battery charger, with a DLS-55, 55 amp model. For some unknown reason the DLS-90 would occasionally demand more current that my generator can deliver. It only happens when it is really hot, like it was in Texas. It’s a shame because most of the time the DLS-90 doesn’t stress the generator at all, even when delivering the full 90 amps. The DLS-90 was able to pump enough energy into my batteries to allow me to run my air conditioner all day (and night) in the Texas heat. The DLS-55 might not keep up in the most extreme conditions, but I have no way to test it short of driving to someplace really hot. The DLS-90 really shouldn’t draw that much current, ever, and it only does it briefly. I have no idea why it does it. Fortunately it doesn’t break anything permanently. The generator just needs to be power cycled to get everything working again.

7. My inverter occasionally complains (alarms) about something. As near as I can tell it is complaining about the DC input voltage being too high. It also works fine when power cycled. It seems when you assemble systems from these various expensive parts you can’t be sure how nicely they are going to play together. That is one good argument for a fully integrated package with a battery charger, inverter, and often a transfer switch. Unfortunately such a package would not have worked for me.

8. The catalytic heater is big enough for my application, but is very slow to warm the house when it is cold. The house is so well insulated that it will eventually get plenty warm and stay that way, but it takes several hours to warm up. I don’t consider this a problem so much as a design trade-off. I can always use the stove for initial heating, but that is not the safest thing to do.

On the whole the truck is great. It can driveway camp with just a 15 amp extension cord and even run the air conditioner all day in the Texas heat. It’s comfortable inside (for me) and has everything I really need. The Wi-Fi works even in places that I would not have expected.

Frankly, I am glad not to have to live in the truck full time. I don’t need much in the way of living space, but I would miss my garage and easy access to all of my tools. The truth is, I am not a vagabond by nature and having to move around all the time would have been stressful. I am very happy to use the stealth camper for weekends and vacations, although it would have been far cheaper and less time consuming to buy a small RV for that purpose.

[Bob86ZZ4]

Thanks for the great write up RanD. Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.

[Highway OPie]

Hello Ran:

I have enjoyed reading all the past posts your original message generated.

Your most recent post about the "would I do it again" items really brought home a fortunate situation regarding my conversion project currently its its third year of work.

When I originally purchase my Peterbilt, and quickly completed all the "major items" (dropping the front axle, extending the frame, installing the frame-mount storage boxes, installing the 16' Morgan box), I then started on the modifications to both the cab sleeper and the camper box. I had originally thought it would take me a year or so to complete these items, and then I would be "all done."

Instead, it has taken me an additional two years of work, and I figure I have at least another two years of work ahead of me. Although this sounds like a long time, it has provided me (and my wife) an unexpected advantage:

"Try it out as you build it to make sure the way you have designed it is really the way you want it!"

We have been camping in our conversion project for the past two summers. Using the camper as we have been building it has resulted in numerous changes to the design and building from the way we had originally planned it. This has been a great benefit to us, as when we get done, it will really have been "camper tested" and I doubt there will be any residual "I wish we had done it this way, instead."

So, thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions. They too have been of great benefit to us.

Speed Gray, K8SG
Grand Rapids, MI

[watahyahknow]

wow took me a while to read it all , lots of tricks and tripwires too i aplied for membership to ask a question i hope you still on this forum as the tread is a few years old

theres one thing i've been thinking about :
you run the gen to 120 volts 20 amps or so , then lower it to 12 volts 90 amps to charge the batteries then raise it to 120volts 15 amps or so again to run the the aircon
i've been looking intoo this but havent found a lot sofar : a 12 volt 120 amp intelligend generator ( one that adjust the rpm to load)
having a 12/24 volt generator would do away with the charger to keep the batteries topped up (being a 120 amps prolly does it faster too) unless youre running shorepower the gen prolly be more efficient too

why you dont try to get a 12 volt to 9 (?) volt adapter for youre laptop

wouldn;t it be more efficient to have the generator run on propane gas

[Bob86ZZ4]

Propane takes up more space for the same amount of btu's, doesn't it? I'm pretty sure RanD is still around here. He'll come in for sure. I don't recall ever seeing a 12 volt generator. But, if you had one it wouldn't run anything on 120 volts without an inverter. So, why not run a 120 volt generator and use a charger/converter for the 12 volts you need?

[watahyahknow]

it does take a little more propane to run the generator compared to gasoline , it will rob some of the power that only means you need to fill up on gas more often than now , in my country as the price is about half of that of gasoline its still cheaper to run on gas even if the mpg goes down .
if the engine is only converted to propane without internal adaptations it whont make as mush power as on gasoline then again propane has an octane rating of about 108 depending on how warm it is , you can get it close to the same power as gasoline by raising the static compression and setting the ignitionsystem of the motor differently , the valves get less lubrication from the propane fuel but then again the unleaded gasoline allrealy causes that issue so the newer generators prolly allready have hardened seats and better valves in them
an engine running on propane allso makes less harmfull byproducts as carbon and co2 wish is a nice thing when gasses can enter the living quarters and an engine running on propane needs less oilchanges as its a cleaner fuel .... after its burned that is , the inlet and carb will gum up with some of the stuf floating in the gas

when he wouldve converted the generator to run on gas the 2nd tank he uses holding the gasoline isnt needed no more and can be replaced by a bigger or more propanetanks to offset the amount of refilling per period
if you allso have the campers gas engine converted to propane you only need to fill up with one feul , i even seen helper systems that injects propane intoo dieselengine for more power up steep slopes or when towing (look for bullydog propane kit on google and you tube)
from my own experiance it seems that generators and engines in general run smoother and more quet on propane as if vaporizes better than gasoline the gassystems that are for sale from places like impco works on vacuum so i think even a intelligent generator will work efficient on it
straingely enough propane is safer in a collision than a steel tank of gasoline , its less likely to rupture and spread its content over the floor i seen a film about a train coliding with a propanetank mounted on a concrete wedge it only relaesed some of he gas trough the safetyvalve
the only bad thing is the fact that it isnt eazy to fill up when youre stuck somewhere without fuel , a switchable reserve tank would help there though

i have seen one somewat professionally build 12 volt generator that basicly was a 6 hp engine connected to a 12 volt 120 Amp GM car generator
some others i seen where based on lawnmower engines driving a car generator at 3000 rpm trough pulleys ...... there realy noizy and i suspect not as efficient

as for running a generator on 120 volts : in his case allmost all the stuf he'd put intoo his stealth camper is running at 12 volts (tv bleu ray gamecomputer computer toilet lighting fans heater) or can be converted to run on 12 volt without the use of a inverter the only exceptions being the aircon unit the microwave oven and the coffeemaker , i wouldnt be suprized if you can find those made for commercial rigs and ships that run on either 24 or 12 volts
i just think it will take less energy to run everything from 12 or 24 volts straight of the generator to the batteries , faster too as the cargenerator i describet put out 120 amps compared to the 90 amp batterycharger he was using and there avalable with even more power for car audio stuff , it might even be cheaper as you dont realy need to purchase the inverter or batterycharger straight away to be operative , the 12 volt aplyances prolly be more expencive though

[Ran D. St. Clair]

[QUOTE=theres one thing i've been thinking about :
you run the gen to 120 volts 20 amps or so , then lower it to 12 volts 90 amps to charge the batteries then raise it to 120volts 15 amps or so again to run the the aircon
i've been looking intoo this but havent found a lot sofar : a 12 volt 120 amp intelligend generator ( one that adjust the rpm to load)
having a 12/24 volt generator would do away with the charger to keep the batteries topped up (being a 120 amps prolly does it faster too) unless youre running shorepower the gen prolly be more efficient too

why you dont try to get a 12 volt to 9 (?) volt adapter for youre laptop

wouldn;t it be more efficient to have the generator run on propane gas[/QUOTE]

Sorry to not answer sooner. My truck has been done for years now and I don't get back to this forum too often.

I hear you really like propane... I believe the Honda Eu2000i has a propane conversion option, or you can even buy it with multi-fuel capability. I hear that generaters run longer and cleaner on propane as well. I also hear that they better tolerate sitting and not running for long periods of time, unlike gasoline that can turn to gelly and clog things up, or at the very least be hard to start if the genny hasn't been run for a while.

I suppose the biggest reason I run the genny on gas and not propane is simply the wide availability of gas. Propane is harder to find, though not hard in an absolute sense. I designed the truck to live in full time, on the road, while traveling, or at least moving around a little bit to keep from annoying anyone in particular. Convenience for getting fuel is a worthy issue. As it turns out the truck gets used rarely and more like a conventional RV so I suppose propane might have been a better choice in some ways, but at this point it works, and I am not interested in fixing it.

As for all the efficiency losses of going from 120V to 12V and back to 120V, that is certainly true, but it turns out to work great anyway. I can driveway camp on just a 15A outlet even in the 110 degree Texas heat and still have everything I need including the comfort of air conditioning. I can do the same on my generator, though I have never done it for an extended period of time.

As for getting a 12V adapter for my laptop, I believe they are available. At the moment the truck sits in the driveway hooked to 110V AC so the laptop is on charge and has been for years. For this sort of extended driveway parking, which is essentially storage since I am not living in the truck, I bypass the inverter and run the AC straight into the truck. The battery charger is still floating the battery but is usually pumping out just a couple of amps.

Years later, all systems are still working perfectly, so I have no incentive to fix anything. The truck does get out for weekend trips, usually not even overnight, but it is still really nice to have all the amenities even for a day at the beach.

[watahyahknow]

thanks for the reply , youre right in that if it isnt broke dont try to fix it , perhabs its safe to say that you might done some things in a different way if you had to start over ...... i guess that counts for more things than just the camper
propane is available in the netherlands as LPG at about every gasstation out of town here so fueling up would be a one stop thing besides that its 1/3th the price of gasoline (i read in the newspaper yesterday that we have THE highest fuelprice in the world ) so it counts for a lot of cash , the only thing is that lpg is a propane buthane mix depending on the outside temperature filling up in the summer might mean that the gas comes out as a liquid or not at all in winter

i wish i would be able to do sumtin like step in a van take off and camp where i want to stop , unfortunately where not realy alowed to stop anywhere outside truckstops and truckapointed parkingspots by all sorts of rules and regulations
where a small country with a small minded goverment and rules at times , i could run away from it all but they allway seem to be able to find you again and make you pay through the nose for youre sins

[Ran D. St. Clair]

Vagrency laws are everywhere, but it doesn't stop people from living on the street or living in their cars, it just gives the police something to work with if they feel the need. I have never lived the life, but while I was preparing to, I began to notice people doing it everywhere, and I don't just mean the half crazy ones that haven't washed in forever. Away from their vehicles they blend in like anyone else. It's only their vehicles I noticed, mostly they kept to themselves. I think the public's general fear and distaste is overblown, like they have some sort of catching disease. But it's not a disease to be poor, and people as decent and honorable as any of your neighbors can find themselves on hard times. For a lot of folks it just takes a lost job or some unexpected medical condition and their life savings are gone. They were your neighbors, or coworkers, and friends for many years, but now they live in their car, or worse. A lot of them are in their 50's or older, and yes, some of them made bad choices, and didn't save, or never upgraded their skills to insure their future employability. I won't defend them, but there are times when I feel I understand them. I think part of what makes people uncomfortable is that they know that "there but for the grace of God go I", and the thought of their own possible future is disquieting. Some will say in anger that they have a right to exist wherever they stand, but most just want to be left alone in their quiet shame, and mostly, that's exactly what they do, which is why you never see them, even though they are everywhere.

[hot rod]

Good to see you back on the forum. Don't be a stranger.

I finally got my propane powered truck on the road, which has 140 gallons of propane on board for the engine. I researched and found a multifuel propane conversion for my Honda 3000 generator, and they also have one for the 1000 and 2000 generators. It's a no brainer in my situation. I just haven't had the time to get it converted yet. I have a hose with a quick disconnect for a forklift to hook up to the tank to run the generator as needed. And you are correct, propane engines on average double the life of a gasoline engine, and there are zero issues with fuel breakdown over time like gasoline. and you can still run on gasoline with those setups if needed. Also far lower emissions if you are an environmental type, or just don't like stinky exhaust fumes.

Good to hear from you!

[watahyahknow]

there conversionkits available from impco wish let you convert any gasoline engine to propane , the setup work on vacuum (more vacuum more feul) and only needs a smal hole drilled intoo the manifold of said engine to hook up the gas injectionhose from the vaporizer

the dutch goverment proud themselves of noone needs to live below whelfare but its getting more and more hollowed out from the inside with new rules and budgetcuts and more and more people are now living silently below whellfare because there case falls between 2 rulings wish gives them nothing at all
whe are forced to have healthinsurance , we need to make a contribultion of 350 euro on our own on medical bills a year before the insurance kicks in so getting hospitalized doesnt force us to sell our home , it might cost us our savings though as we do need to pay some of the bills , i think that one is a good rule as like you said whole families in the states loose everything they have when a familymember gets sick and needs to be hospitalized , the insurance companies them selves are putting the srews on the hospitals to provide cheaper healthcare because the companies will send there healthcaremembers to a different hospital if they dont , this does drop the cost a bit and make hospitals get more specialized in certan treathments ( like treathing burns cancer or hearthsurgery) but allso makes hospitals trow patients out after the treathment sooner than they used to before
america is a lot bigger and its eazier there to hide in plane sight or move and still be near where you need to be , theres a saying here in the netherlands that when you go take a leak in the bushes youre bound to piss on someones head , where pretty densely populated thus making it hard to do something that isnt noticed or frowned upon / reported to the law

[Ran D. St. Clair]

I have heard that there is some sort of an oily liquid mixed in with propane in small amounts. I forget the name of it though. I am not sure if it is an intentional additive like a lubricant, or an unintentional byproduct. What I have heard is that in systems where there is high volume usage it can accumulate at low points in the plumbing and eventually impede the flow. I would assume that makers of propane vehicles and commercial equipment have this all figured out, but various forms of retrofit kits might not be so well designed.

[watahyahknow]

there is an oily resideu propane is a bijproduct of oil as it hardly needs heat to get extracted from crude
propane used to be and sumtimes still is being torched of at the drillinhrigs it was considered a wasteproduct and the transport of it not viable
it doesnt realy get distilled at the refinerie so oily vapor that sticks to it from the crude is compressed along with it in the tanks
on most impco systems the caspart of the twin fuel system is above the carburator and the gas passes the carb if you run that twin fuel car on propane for longer periods of time it can clog up the gasoline stuff with a brown/lack tar like substance making running on gasoline nearly impossible until you clean the carburator out with carbcleaner the ones that are mounted below the car dont have so mush problems
you sumtines need to open up and clean some parts of the vaporizer too but then again you need to do that on a gasoline engine's carburator too after an x amount of miles on it , it still is a verry nice fuel to run on

all gas has some residue if you ever get to feel around the inside of a used natural gasline you get the same smudgy finger from the residu , after they replaced my gasmeter i got to see that myself

[hot rod]

Ethyl Mercaptan is added to propane at the refinery at the rate of 1 pound per 10000 gallons of propane as a odorant as propane is otherwise odorless. It is in fact an oily liquid, but in general does not present any insurmountable problems. It does not vaporize like propane, so in the case of a vapor withdrawal system like a bbq

[hot rod]

grill or the coach supply tank in an rv that small amount of oil remains in the tank when the propane is withdrawn as a vapor. It is a very small amount and only builds up in the tank to the point where it is an issue in very large industrial type vapor applications where you are passing a large amount of propane through the tank, or over a long period of time. And even then it is realistically only noticed in that the propane is a little stinkier than usual if you smell it. That sort of thing will never be noticed in a consumer application like an rv.

Whatayaknow is referring to an engine fuel situation only where the liquid propane is withdrawn from the tank as a liquid, therefore bringing the oil with it to the vaporizer on the engine. The liquid is then vaporized by a heat exchanger at the engine, where the oil then comes out of the propane. Over time a slight oily buildup will occur on surfaces downstream of the vaporizer, as in the carb itself. Again really not an issue unless it builds up over a long period of time, and no more of an issue than a gasoline carb "gumming up" over time. As he mentioned, on a dual fuel system it is important to run the vehicle on engine on gasoline from time to time to keep everthing working properly. Basically the gaskets can dry out and parts can gum up just like the engine had been sitting and not running for an equivalent amount of time. We would run a vehicle on propane for sometimes years if you never needed to buy gas, then find out when you try to switch over that the needle and seat was stuck or a float bowl gasket was leaking gasoline.

All those problems are minor and not really worth worrying about vs. the advantages of propane as an engine fuel.

[watahyahknow]

ehrm yes and no . the systems for automotive use and high flow aplications basicly all capable of drawing the feul in liquid form the pickup for automotive aplications is below the fluid level in carpropane tanks , thats basicly the reason why you shouldnt use a cars standard pickup point on the tank to light up the barbi , it would allso light the house and the person lighting it along wth the meat as the unlit barbi in the worst case will become a birdbath filled with liquid propane filling up to the edge and rolling over it as a vapor (depending on outside temperature ) can you say big boomn and smokehood entering the atmosfere ?


the evaporator / vaporizer in car applications im talking about is extremely simply put a box split intoo two hallways in one hallway they route the engine coolant , and through the other hallway the semi liquid propane (the propane does vaporize some on route to the vaporizer depending on the temperature of the outside air) the heat from the engine cooland helps the liquid turn intoo gas at the rate needed for the cars engine thats why theres a small copper line from the tank to the vaporizer and a larger line from the vaporizer to the cars intake , the explanation is extremely simple in the real evaporizers theres also a filtration section with some metal wool , and a membrane that works like a vacuumoperated valve the engine draws too mush propane to be able to transport it in gasform from the tank

the smaller setups i was talking about for generators and lawnmowers do draw the gas from the top of the tank so they shouldnt have as mush problems with the oily stuff like you mentioned