What is legally required

Hancock Racing · 09-15-2005, 05:44 PM

I very much appreciate all of the feedback that I have received from this site. I wanted to see if you guys could help me. I read in a different post a similar question, but I am in a different position.

My Toterhome is used to pull a 48' lounge trailer. We do use it to transport a racecar. We do not use it as a commercial vehicle of any sort. No big name sponsor etc. (It does have Hancock Racing, but no phone number etc., just our family name)

What type license is required to drive this type vehicle, if it is not for hire, and not used to make any money, what would it fall under. It was registered and insured as an RV. I have heard many different stories from many different people, but am unsure what is right. I have even spoken to our local CDL training office, as well as numerous calls and emails to the DOT and have basically received the same response. "Don't Know"

The previous owner of the truck told me that he never stopped at scales, and that the truck did not require a DOT number; however there is a number on the truck. Could this have been before he had it converted? Should I remove it?
The number I believe is 6657B

The previous owner raced motorcycles, and I wondered if it was for that, but it looks to me to be some type of regulation number. He told me his DOT number for his other commercial vehicles, and it did not match, so I don't know what it is. I hoped that you could help.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

KAYE RIVERCITY · 09-16-2005, 12:48 AM

....take off all numbers and letters and you won't to be looked at real close.....therefore no stopping/DOT inspections/weigh stations unless it is a slow nite and some DOT has nothing to do.....they have a quota system also......usually 8 stops a day.....My friend is a ODOT here in Ohio and we talk all the time.....rather argue as he is a Democrat while he is checking for the next truck.....No race car inside and only family type things he will pass you on if you have a DL and insurance....I don't really mind if they stop me I have 4 new friends now on the Highway to and from Florida....geofkaye

Hancock Racing · 09-16-2005, 01:13 PM

Thanks for the info. That is what I will do. I just wanted to see what most other owners are doing with this type setup.

Thanks

Vern396 · 09-19-2005, 10:29 AM

Hi Marshall,

Glad to see other drag racers come onboard. If you have not done so, check out the "Commercial Legal Questions" post in this forum.

Since your toter is registered as an RV, you should not need a CDL and DOT Physcial nor have to complie with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations as long as you are not running a business. If you are deducting your racing expenses on your personal income taxes, then you are running a business in the eyes of the DOT. Also make sure the toter is registered in your own name, not Hancock Racing. The same goes for the trailer and the insurance on both.

As Kaye Rivercity indicated, take off all of the numbers. I would also recomend that you take Hancock Racing off of the doors also. It can be construed that you are holding yourself out as a business and/or doing business as ("d/b/a") "Hancock Racing" even if you don't have a businees license. I would also have "RV" or "Recreational Vehicle" and "Not For Hire" on the sides of both the toter and the trailer.

Finally, if you have not done so, download a copy of 49 CFR 309.3(f)(3) and its interpretation from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administrations web cite and carry it in your toter's glovebox along with the RV registration.

fastlap · 09-19-2005, 01:35 PM

In NY DOT sez if it is for commerce , even if just a trophy and not actual cash , then CDL applies assuming the weight is met! and, your are supposed to stop at all check points !
Also if air brake equipt. then that endorsement is required even for RVs, (non commerce)
Also a medical card is required for more than 100 mile radius !
Most of the time these laws are unenforced , but DOT (not Me) swears they exist ! T>

Hancock Racing · 09-19-2005, 04:59 PM

Vern,

I have heard the same thing from a number of people. I really hate to have the name removed, as I think I have about $1k in the truck, and trailer. I do not have a business license in the name of Hancock Racing, and the Toterhome is lettered Private Transport Not For Hire on both sides, but not the trailer. I had the truck and trailer lettered as you could faintly see the old lettering from when the trailer was a team Budweiser trailer.

I will go to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration website and see if I can download a copy of the 49 CFR 309.3(f)(3) and its interpretations.

As far as operating the rig in NY, that is further than we will be traveling. Most of our races will be within a few hundred miles. All winnings are going to be equally divided and will be donated to the Make a Wish Foundation, Life Link of GA, as well as The Eye Bank of Georgia, so we are basically not-for-profit.

We only do the racing as a hobby and don't try to make any ROI in this area. We don't write any of this equipment off, and all are personally registered and insured in my name, and not in Hancock Racing.

I do see where it could be considered a business if lettered that way, so I will be removing the lettering on both the truck, and trailer.

Hancock Racing · 09-19-2005, 05:34 PM

Vern,

I could not find the file you suggested that I download. If you have access, could you please post a link to the page on here for me? I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thanks

Vern396 · 09-20-2005, 07:39 AM

Marshall,

I hope the following link works:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administrati...0.3&section_toc=1738

If not go to http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov and in the left colum under "Rules & Regulations" click on the link to "All Regulations." From there click on the link to "Part 390" then click the link to "Subpart 390.3 General Applicability." To see the interpretation go back to the index for Subpart 390.3 and click on the "Yes" on the right side of the link for 390.3. The "Guidance" to "Question 21" is what you are looking for. In the upper right hand side of each web page there is a "print this page" option.

Even though you donate your winnings to charity, which is very commedable, it will still be considered income by the IRS because it is paid directly to you. Generally, if money goes through your hands, the IRS considers it income and wants its tax dollars regardless of what you do with the money after you receive it. Now if the track operators will agree to pay the money directly to the charity of your choice, that may be a different story. Check with your local accountant/tax advisor. If you've already done so, just ignore me. I just don't want to see you get audited several years down the road and end up owing a bunch of back taxes, interest, fines and etc.

Fastlap brings up a very good point. There are fifty states and, as you can imagine, 50 ways to register a vehicle such as yours. Your toter probably meets the legal definition of commercial motor vehicle in your state as well as the definition of RV. It probably fits into the same definitions in all 50 states.

So how do you insure that you are legal in all 50 states? There are a few possible answers, the first of which is don't travel outside of your home state. However, that's neither pratcial nor any fun, unless you live in No. 50. The second is attept to insure you are legal in all the states in which you plan to travel. This can be expensive and nearly impossible, unless you comply with the FMCSR's and/or buy trip permits for each state and so on. Third, and closely related to the second answer, is make sure you are absolutely legal in your home state. There is a principal of law known as full faith and credit wherein the states agree to honor each others laws. What this boils down to is that if your legally registered in your state of residnece, then you should be legal in all 50 states. This principal among others is what allows us to drive our cars from state to state without having to stop at the border to obtain a license and registration to travel through the state. However, even if your legal in your state, its not to say that some DOT officer in another state is not going to give you a hard time.

You indicated that the standard answer you recived when you talked to your local DOT, etc., was "Don't Know." First, don't depend on the person behind the counter to give you the correct answer to what's legal. Chances are they don't have a clue what the vehicle registration law is in your state. For example, I'll bet that more than half of the pick up trucks in my state that are 3/4 ton and above are improperly registered and licensed because the people behind the counter don't know the law. Second, go straight to the powers that be. Write the director or head of the department of your state government that handles vehicle registration. If that don't work, write the attorney general. Finally, if all elese fails, write the governor and tell him or her that nobody in his or her state can, or is willing, tell you how to be legal.

KAYE RIVERCITY · 09-21-2005, 12:00 AM

.....Hancock-ask your local friendly DOT permit inspector.....he will give you all the details and point you in the right direction....here in Ohio-he is a good friend and he and his son helped with my Volvo and trailer.....I'm up to date on everything RV/Truck Wise.....geofkaye

Hancock Racing · 09-21-2005, 06:20 AM

I have spoken with our local DOT. He stated that if the truck had air brakes and was operated in the state of GA, I would need a CDL to operate no matter what we used the truck for, or how it was registered. He also said that it didn't matter if the truck was lettered or not. I really don't think that I want to go through all this trouble to go racing 5 or 6 times a year. I think that I am going to sell the truck, and trailer and buy a motorhome, and tag trailer. I think that I could get by the DOT with that type setup. I have basically put a target on my own back by speaking to my local DOT man, as he stated that he would be watching for my truck, and trailer now. (He patrols the area I live in, and has a nasty habit of writing tickets for anything that he can find.) I have the truck in a custom cabinet shop right now having the interior re-done, and took him by to see it. Big mistake on my part I guess.

WERA · 09-21-2005, 06:42 AM

Your toter is a motorhome so if a regular motorhome is legal so is the toter. As for air brakes - DOT officer or not, he's wrong as far as everything I've found reading the GA laws and talking to lawyers on occasion - if it's an RV you are exempt from the air brake issue in Georgia, other states aren't so lucky. Since you're using the rig for a hobby you're not commercial, so you're not different than any other rv out there no matter what he wants to think. Granted that won't stop him form being a pain in the you know what but the reality is you're an rv and engaged in a hobby you do for fun and spend money on - not a business you make money on.

The problem is our rigs are not anywhere near normal so no one really knows the answer, that's why I went and read the law myself and it's pretty clear that if you're not using an RV for commercial use you're just like any other RV'er even if it's a class 8 based rig.

Hancock Racing · 09-23-2005, 02:45 PM

Sean,

I would really like to know where you were able to read up on the laws for GA. I would very much like to have a copy, so that WHEN I am pulled over by this guy I can show him in writing.

I have made an appointment to have the truck stripped of all lettering and fully detailed next week. I will have both the truck and trailer lettered as private rv only.

I would very much like to keep the truck as we have just invested a lot of cash into having the interior done, and have not even picked it back up from the custom shop yet.

This truck will definately not be commercial as long as we own it, but convincing the DOT of that is my only concern.

I will have no problem producing the registration, and insurance that both show it as privately owned, and registered as an RV. If I could have something printed showing the GA DOT laws, that would be excellent, as we will be doing about 95% of our racing in this state.

Thanks

KAYE RIVERCITY · 09-23-2005, 11:58 PM

.....go to a Georgia DOT officer he will get you straightened out and give you some printed info.....geofkaye

Hancock Racing · 09-25-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KAYE RIVERCITY:
.....go to a Georgia DOT officer he will get you straightened out and give you some printed info.....geofkaye

Geofkaye,

You must not have seen my other post. That is what has me worried.

I have spoken with our local DOT. He stated that if the truck had air brakes and was operated in the state of GA, I would need a CDL to operate no matter what we used the truck for, or how it was registered. He also said that it didn't matter if the truck was lettered or not. I have basically put a target on my own back by speaking to my local DOT man, as he stated that he would be watching for my truck, and trailer now. (He patrols the area I live in, and has a nasty habit of writing tickets for anything that he can find.) I have the truck in a custom cabinet shop right now having the interior re-done, and took him by to see it. Big mistake on my part I guess.

spooner · 09-25-2005, 10:00 AM

sounds like a realy nice (= oh, im so important

) paperpusher to me.
dont give up!
may check on the Escapee board; contact "gkbiker", he is from GA and has a KW T2000/5th wheel rig registered as "RV"

vapoppa · 09-25-2005, 12:45 PM

marshall--- mase sanford--- i live in gilmer co ga. and my T2000 coach is resistered in ga. as a motorhome--r.v.-- when i moved here from va a year ago i went to g-dot in blue ridge ga and switched my va reg. for a ga one-- all i know is i do not have to have any special tags or driving licence here. i have now driven in 48 of the states and across canada,-- been through customs and have never had any problems. (your experince may vary) --- mase

WERA · 09-27-2005, 01:34 PM

Try looking through here using the search function - http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin....pl?code=1-1-1

It is legalese and slightly confusing but I didn't find it too hard to understand.

Still no time to do the legwork right now but I will if I can.

KAYE RIVERCITY · 09-27-2005, 10:56 PM

.....But, did he site the printed law?....that's what you want to have and the easiest and cheapest way of getting it is for him- to get it for you[he just might learn something also]......I'm sure he will get it straightened out for you- if you ask....what you want to have is the printed LAW not an interpertation.....so anyone can look at it and make up their mind....I have it in plastic and available for an officer to refer to......I have the Ohio version with me and the number of the DOT office so a call can be made.....with a court appearance the officer will loose and not only become embarrassed but also there is a liability question to be answered by the judge if you have all your ducks in a row[false arrest]......No DOT officer will issue a ticket if they are unsure of the law.....it reflects very badly on them!.....geofkaye

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