Caution to anyone towing for competition or where you get a payoff including a trophy

[Kirk]

Not sure how many if anyone here hauls any competition toys but just thought I would pass this on.

"Found this on RDC
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15921

Anyone else hear of this BS. Makes me think twice before getting a 40' GN to tow the truck around in....


Found this post on another website,,,found it interesting....Thought I would pass it along as I haven't heard of this....


Quote:
I spent the better half of my day off, sitting down with both State & U.S. DOT officials, reviewing what the current and future laws,restrictions fall under a ATV racer who transports a race quad from state to state by means of a motor vehicle towing a trailer.

The term "Sponsorship" defined by DOT officials, rule it as to sponsor something is to support an event, activity, person or organization by providing money or other resources in exchange for something, usually advertising or publicity, and always access to an audience that earns popularity and relies on income from sponsorship advertising.

So what's this mean? technically your vehicle,ATV and or trailer displaying sponsor graphics is a commercial operation. Requiring you to obtain a " B Class CDL" not based off the weight classification over 26,000 LBS or a trailer that weighs over 10,000 LBS. They view as if your a traveling bil board.

This brings up a loophole that's gonna get closed real soon, toter homes, they are big, carry lots of weight, have huge gvw's and are registered as motor homes, and revc vehicles and towing all over the country, in huge trailers.

They are currently exempt from weigh stations, and cdl's and logs, but not for long, the DOT is getting their stuff together, and they will be stopped and cited soon! Time is coming..............soon!

Until recentely I've started to see more and more race transporters displaying sponsor graphics being pulled over and cited

Failure to have a Log book and follow the hours of service laws. No USDOT Numbers on the vehicle. No commercial insurance policy and commercial registraion.

Just FYI, if you have RV insurance you better read your policy. If there is even the smell of commercial activity, any sponsor graphics on the side, they will pay NOTHING! You should also be stopping at all the scales. Then you need to get IFTA stickers and pay fuel taxes. And don't forget about your Med Card you need to renew every 2 years because you cross state lines. Oh yeah, and the drug testing!

Don't get pissed off with the and start bashing Police or State trooper over this issue, we inforce what is written by your peers you voted for. Will I enforce this? by law I am required too. But.....I did not see you.

More to follow. I have a second set of meetings today with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration to start federal appeals.

Now the DOT is messing with racers

7/8/05

had a different article ready to send to Jeff for this month but I deleted it after I made about 7 phone calls that pertained to a situation that a friend of mine went through. What I am about to write about could possibly affect EVERY RACER who races for a cash purse or deducts the expenses and show the incomes they get from racing.

I will start by telling you a short story that involves a good friend and a guy who wouldn't have the "attitude" that might cause a Department of Transportation enforcement officer to be an ***. If anything, I would say this racer would probably accommodate the officer and ask what he needed to be doing differently. The next series of events came about as close to leaving me speechless as the "contingency thing."

Here is this racer towing down the highway minding his own business with his standard cab Dodge dually and 30' fifth-wheel enclosed trailer with a dragster inside. The lights come on behind him and he pulls over. Not sure why he is pulled over he just sits and waits, as an excuse isn't needed. The DOT Enforcement Officer is polite enough and asks for his driver's license and registration. No big deal so far. A few minutes later he asks for the trailer registration (no problem, got that), a driver's logbook (uh-oh!), a medical card and the commercial registration for the truck (double uh-oh!). About now he asks why all that stuff is needed. The response is the part that scares me and should scare you as well.

Before I go into some more details...check this part out. Since this racer had no logbook (do any of us?) the DOT Officer informs him he had to park the trailer for 10 hours since there is no way he can be sure this racer has driven more than the allowed 14 hours that day. ADVERTISEMENT


He told the racer to follow him to the DOT scale area and that he had to park the trailer, unhook and leave the area!!! Let's see, no insurance on the racecar and parts, no security to keep an eye on it and the DOT told him they are not responsible. You cannot stay there to protect it. How often would you leave your race trailer, race car and tools sitting at a weigh station for 10 hours and you not be there? That bothers me more than meeting the requirements. What do you think?

The DOT officer then goes into the whole deal about commercial businesses and what determines them from a hobby, etc, etc. Bottom line, towing your race car to the races where you race for cash is now determined to be a commercial enterprise. This occurred in Wisconsin and I thought it might be a strange law there. I called the Iowa DOT and they explained it the same way. If you weigh over 10,000 pounds (truck, trailer and cargo) you are determined to be a commercial enterprise if you race for money and or deduct your racing expenses from your IRS taxes and show the winnings on a an IRS #1099.

You can call it a hobby and probably lie to the DOT officer about it being a hobby, but if he makes the right calls you'd better not tell him you race for trophies when he finds out where you are going or coming from. The officer I talked to also said if they run into a hassle they have the authority to make arrests, have trailers and trucks towed, etc, etc. In other words, these guys have all the power they need to enforce the law, as they or their superiors understand it.

I also asked this officer if putting on labels such as "Not For Hire" or "Recreational Vehicle" made vehicles exempt. His answer was short, "No." A vehicle is either going to be considered a commercial vehicle or it isn't.

I am pretty sure most states will be following these same guidelines and at the very least you need to check them out. Each state DOT should have a website or be listed in the State Government Offices in your phone book.

Breaking it down: I received a 65-page document via email from the Iowa DOT that outlined this whole scenario. These are the basics as close as I can get to understanding it all. I do feel it is important for each of you to look into this in your state and be prepared. You may never be checked but then again, YOU MAY BE NEXT!

BASIC REQUIREMENTS AND SOME Q & A:

Who must comply? For-hire motor carrier – A person or business that provides transportations of persons or property in exchange for any form of compensation or payment. When I quizzed them about what that meant they responded with this response. If you have decals or sponsor names on the car or trailer and you race with the chance or plan to win money it is commercial. If you deduct the racing expenses and show race income on your taxes it is commercial.

What is a commercial vehicle? Any self-propelled or towed vehicle used on a highway in intrastate and interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:
- has a gross vehicle weight rating, gross combined weight rating. Gross weight or gross combined weight greater than 10,000 pounds; or
- is designed to transport more than eight passengers for compensation; or
- is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
- is used to transport hazardous materials in quantities requiring placards.

Logbooks/Hours of Service Drivers of commercial vehicles are subject to driving time limits as set forth in Part 395 of the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Regulations. The federal rules provide for three driving time rules that are in effect simultaneously.
- After a 100-hour break, a driver shall not drive more than 11 hours.
- After a 10-hour break, a driver shall not drive after 14 consecutive hours.
A driver shall not drive after completing 60 hours on duty in seven days, or 70 hours on duty in 8 days, unless the 34-consecutive-hour-restart provisions have been met.

Unless excepted, drivers must have a logbook which is current to the last change in status in their possession when on-duty. When on-duty, a driver must make the logbook available for inspection by any law enforcement officer.

There is an exception for local travel, it is called the 100-mile-radius Exemption. As the name indicates it is for traveling within a 100-mile radius of the driver or owners base of operation.

Fire extinguishers, triangle reflectors, fuses, inspections Each vehicle must have a minimum of a 5 lb. B-C fire extinguisher in an area clearly marked, three triangular reflectors that can be set up behind vehicle in the event of a breakdown are required. Spare fuses that match each circuit are required. Pre-Trip Inspection sheet should ALWAYS be filled out and kept in the logbook. Just a simple listing of what was checked will do; lights, turn signals, tire pressures, brake pedal and steering feel, hitch and safety chains, break-away battery and switch and trailer tires and lights.

Driver Qualifications/Medical Card There were forms on each state's websites for Medical Card qualifications and forms for the physicals. Drivers must have a valid driver's license for class of vehicle being operated, medical examiner's certificate and skill performance evaluation (waiver if required).

There is a lot more to this, and there are a lot of opinions on this as well. All I can say for now is I was very surprised by the firm responses I got from the DOT Officers and their resolve that they know most racing operations are rated as commercial enterprises. I would have to agree they are commercial in nature because we can go to races that pay from $500 to $50,000 to win an event. With the tow rigs and trailers getting larger and larger and more valuable, it is very common for racers to take advantage of certain IRS rules and depreciate these big-ticket items on the annual IRS filings.

I will look further into this but in this first installment I just wanted to make sure as many of you as possible are alerted to what is going on.

Personally, I am going to get the DOT reflective triangles, another fire extinguisher, a DOT physical and definitely start keeping a logbook, so I don't get pulled over for 10 hours and possibly lose my "day job" because I can't be there Monday morning. Quite a bit to consider, that's for sure. I invite your comments and any experiences you may have had with these matters. Just consider one thing, the next guy they pull over and tell them to leave their trailer at the weigh station MIGHT BE YOU.

I have to admit I hate the thought of more government invasions into my life but it goes hand in hand with how things are headed, I guess. At least we still have the freedom to go racing and burn up $7 per gallon race fuel... "

Heres the link to the whole thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416059 . This is off of a 4x4 forum that I am a part of. Just thought I would pass the info on.

~Kirk

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....and so the problem is?....your commercial or your not commercial......if there is any profit-of any kind-it is commercial.....In the vehicle towing business we have had that problem for a long time.....including but not limited to; ....exchanging sex for towing=commerical......have dinner with us= commerical.....how about a whiskey or two for coming out on a nite like this=DUI and commercial......if there is any exchange of anything of value your commerical......When I tow free=there is never any strings attached-I make that announcement ahead of time....If any of my friends tow using my roll-off wrecker and there is any exchange of anything of value-then there is NO insurance......It is just drawing a line in the sand again and defining terms and conditions.....nothing out of the ordinary these days.....most of this is brought on by the lobby for ithe insurance companies BTW.....not necssarly the enforcemant people as they have enough to do....MY Friend that is DOT has to inspect an average of 8 trucks a day for some rule infraction .....he must ticket any infraction or he can be held responcible himself for any outcome.....that is why I have him inspect my tractor and trailer for any problem ahead of time....I'd rather spend the time and money and have my ducks in a row than fight it out in court......Last time I was in court it was 5 years for the settlement of $6500.......geofkaye

[Kirk]

There are a lot of guys that have a F-250 and a toybox that haul their toys around to simple events or even organized trail rides where they give away simple trophies let alone $25 or $50 for winning some stupid contest. Thats considered a commercial enterprise and people are getting popped for it. I do personally do not have a CDL but my Dad does so I am not really worried about it. We have been hauling jeeps to competitions for years and have never had any kind or commercial license or log book. But now we started keeping one.

Also the people that have stickers or company decals on the side or back of their trucks whether they are out for a weekend fun or competition are also considered commercial because they are advertising for the company's whose logos are on the side of their truck. The DOT cops are starting to crack down on all of these infractions. Its just something to watch out for. Just want to spread the word and keep anyone from any headaches that they might have when they meet a cop oh the highway.

~Kirk

[WERA]

Sounds only like the ones that take their winnings off of their taxes and are gaining all of the write off priveleges will get in trouble - works for me, you play you pay. The true hobbiest is still totally fine.

This is definitely one reason why our rig is still plain with no graphics...

[Oakland Mike]

A person or business that provides transportations of persons or property in exchange for any form of compensation or payment.

It is this part of the law that I am questioning. We do not get compensation for transporting people or property. That is what I asked when I went to Cal DMV.They told me I was not commercial. But that was just one persons response. I will indeed check again. Thanks for the heads up.

Mike

[WERA]

If you're winning money and cliaming your racing as a business then you are transporting the race vehicle in exchange for those winnings. Basically if you always lose or don't claim the racing as a business you technically should be legal (joking about the losing thing, the attempt will get you nailed by the DOT).

As Kirk said, you may have issues arguing it on the side of the road if it's just a hobby.

On the signage - they'd lose that one in court for smaller decorative stickers, unless of course they require all of the manufacturers to not put their logos on vehicles. Of ocurse you'd setill have to be a hobbiest, not claiming anything anywhere as a business. I can't see your choice of decoration for your private vehicle with no pay to do so being a cmmercial venture - and yet again you're the one who has to argue with the DOT on the side of the road. I prefer to make my life simpler and hang banners when I get to the track.

[QRTRHRS]

Here are some helpful links to further understand log book requirements.
http://www.layover.com/owneroperator...vine/1105.html
http://www.olblueusa.org/cdl&cmvSafetyInfoCenter/

[Elburn Bill]

So taking this to an extreme...

A couple drive their F250 towing an enclosed cargo trailer. They travel to craft fairs on the weekends to sell his woodworkings and her crocheting. They have decals on the doors of the truck and one on the rear of the trailer.

Are they commercial? Do they need a CDLs?

Now take the same couple but now they throw all their stuff into their 3/4 ton suburban.

Same questions?

I have heard of some ranchers being pulled over for CDL violations while towing their livestock to feedlots or to auction. I think this is BS since most states have exemptions for farmers bringing their product to market. I know in Indiana, farmers are able to drive even a Class 8 with a 53' trailer WITHOUT a CDL of any kind under this exemption while hauling their corn, for example. There is a mileage radius that they must maintain and I beleive it is 150 or 200 miles form their farm.

An area that has a lot of us concerned is when we are hauling our animals to shows. Under the law if the animals are for sale we have to follow DOT regs but at a show they are not technically for sale but we do get a ribbon if we place in our classes (is this considered compensation when we pay several hundred dollars for the corral space and entry fees and possibly receive a $2 ribbon). Now obviously the better placing animals gather attention and frequently do get requests to sell.

What is clear is that the current wording of the regs leave a lot of room for interpretation by teh DOT officer. I believe that is what causes a lot of the "violations". They have one interpretation and the driver has another...unfortunately more times than not the DOT officer is not going to consede that you may have a valid point...it's a matter of pride.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....MY DOG and I just happen to be in the area with a missing person[non-comercial venture]-which then we have been asked to find by the way of a police request for S&R handlers[still non-commercial venture]....after 5 days it is a recovery issue and at that time we are asked to nose around a little-for no reward[still non-commercialventure]-just a recovery[non-commercial venture] and then some one puts up some money for the whereabouts of the missing person-dog finds remains and we collect the money[commercial venture].....jumping through the hoops is a PIA. But if I donate the money-not touching it or taking an IRS deduction[Non-commercial venture] If I except the reward and then donate it [Commercial venture].....It is a wonder My Dog and I don't drink!.....geofkaye

[fastlap]

big argument at truck stop Dot says we race for prize I say we no take prize even if we win
Dot sez they give prize and we wrong even if we no accept prize
I say driver does not travel with us in conversion He traveles seperate and takes prize seperate I am there merely for philanthropic purpose!
dot sez sick of hereing my mouth how many f***in tickets would I like
I say 37 cause I dont think you can count that high !
his partner laughed so much that i got to leave ticket free and was told not to stop next time cause they do not like big words I use !
I don't mind adhearing to laws , but why do they have to be a secret ?
In ny it is ilegal to wash your coach or car for that matter in your own driveway !
rarely inforced but very true ,
It seems like many laws are made and recorded just so they always have something that they can get you on if they want you bad enough ! T

[WalliK]

Me think you found something new... DOT no count to 37? DOT not know you 65 ft or 80 ft long...

funny story. You are lucky his/her partner had sense of humor.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....split up your operation...one driver drives the truck- race vehicle and trailer for no compensation[pays his own way] and driver drives seperate in his own vehicle and excepts any prize money or trophy....car is trailered home for free-race driver excepts any cash trophy ribbons but is driven home or drives himself home.....No ads on trailer sides but is/are displayed on a canvas which is taken on and off trailer at track before and after race and taken home with car driver in his vehicle......and that my friends is the way around the DOT trap.....as per my friend that is ODOT.....Nothing of value is exchanged for any service......everyone wins!....and DOT doesn't really care as long as you obey the law-which gets them off the hook...geofkaye

[GypsyProgrammer]

If DOT officers are becoming a problem for racers, maybe they should start contacting their congressmen. If DOT clarifies things, you're not going to have a voice in the solution and it's not likely to be in your favor.

Many years ago I used to run a Bulletin Board System (BBS). The telephone company started sending out notices that they were going to switch us over to business rates because they considered us a commercial venture. Phone company = monopoly = SOL, right? At least least until 300 sysops contacted the public utility commision and voiced our complaints. In the end we worked out a compromise that kept most of us (99%) in the hobby group. And a lot of that came from educating people outside our hobby just what it was that we were doing.

I have a feeling that RVers are going to have to do the same thing. We don't want to have to get CDLs to pull 5ers or drive conversions and DMV regulations need clarified in several states.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....this could backfire on the whole group and they can slip us into the catagory of HD vehicles over a certain GVW....Not much of a problem for me but some with medical issues of certain types are going to have problems...Racers are not RVers and Rvers are Not Racers though out paths do do cross....I have only my " Not for Hire-PrivateRV" signs on my vehicle when traveling....I don't advertize anyones Company or sponcership unless I'm compensated rather well......geofkaye

[GypsyProgrammer]

Geof, it's not a question of if they come after us, it's when. Apparently racers are already receiving unwanted attention. One of these days Joe Bob and his 1-ton pulling a 40ft 5ver is going to plow into a family on the way to church, and the indignant screams from the general population is going to be too loud for the gov't to ignore. Then they'll be looking at the RV industry to see what went wrong. At that point we either have to convince them that HDT toters are reasonable or watch them put stricter limits on trailers.

I'll bet those guys in the million dollar diesel pushers are every bit as heavy as we are, so they aren't going to judge us on weight. Because there's no way they're going to sit back and get reclassified as commercial. Our problem is that we use trucks, and although we generally weigh in around 30k lbs, we have the capacity to do 80k.

Racers may or may not be RVers. People taking their livestock to competitions (or the fair, or 4H) may or may not be RVers. And the people running to crafts festivals and BBQ competitions may or may not be RVers. But are they commercial? When IRS says no, they get kind of frustrated with DOT says yes.

When I get ready to register my truck I would be happy to have a clear cut set of rules. Even if that means I have to register as a private truck rather than a motorhome.

-lee

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

.....GypsyProgramer:....I believe your correct in your analsys of the situation as it is now.....the thing for us to do now is to comply with the laws and insure to the limits for each individual situation......mainly because as we have all seen-we only have to wait for goverment regulation and taxs......geofkaye

[fastlap]

what is needed is a book of laws issued by dot that covers RVs! something simple that a stupid person like me can comprehend !
I stopped to talk to a Dot inspecter yesterday (at a check point) just to go over some of the things pretaining to conversion rvs
He told me that their are all kinds of new laws comming for" HD RVers"
He also said that the weight limit of 26000gvw applies At this time along with the 6000# MAX trailer wt
He said that if he stopped me in my 30' motor coach with a 33500 gvw that he would want to see me licienced for at least class B with air brake indorsement and haz (propane ) and if I was towing a trailer that weighed mor thatn 6k I better have a class one indorsement at least for non-articulated !
I want a book that is simple and certified so I may have it in my hand at the time of a stop , this way the inspecters and I both can reference it ! Cause I will tell you right now, NEITHER OF US, ME OR THEM REALLY KNOW THE LAWS PERTAINING TO THIS TYPE OF THING t

[Dano959]

Elburn Bill, one argument I've heard that puts showing animals into a commercial classification is that the $2 ribbon you won can increase the value of the winning animal. Thus while you have not actually won a cash prize at the competition, you have made a future profit by virtue of your placing at the same competition.

[fastlap]

A go kart race , my son is 3 years old ( hes the driver ) he gets a trophy its commerce in the eyes of DOT ! I wonder what would happen if we were driving to play bingo???
what if you driving somewhere to give (loose money) is that not commerce also ? T

[madbrit]

In Arizona my FLD 120 conversion does not have any registered weight. This was removed from the registration and title when it became an RV. In the AZ statutes motorhomes are exempt from all weight related things.

I am in the market for a stacker trailer and having been told that I had to abide by the 65ft overall length rule, I was stuck with a tight 26ft box and a 4ft tongue as my conversion is just under 35ft. So today I made a visit to our local Arizona DoT guys at the nearby weigh station/Port of Entry to confirm lengths of trailers and motorhomes. I met with this guy who has been there for years and he confirmed my suspicions. The person at the Arizona MVD in Phoenix was not reading the regs correctly. It turns out that vehicles registered in Arizona have their own individual max length and there is not an overall length like I had been led to believe. He showed me the section on lengths, which I had referenced before, and he confirmed that the only RV max length is for a combination of RV and 2 trailers such as a dually, 5th wheel, and a boat behind, then there is the 65ft max. Other than that maximums for vehicles are: motorhomes are 45ft, trailers are 40ft and the trailer tongue is 15ft, making a possible max length of 100ft...... Kewl..... LOL.

He stated that if it doesn't have an exclusion, you can do it. The regs are restrictions not permissions, and people often read them the wrong way. I wonder how many other States have similar confusion over these regs?

So I can also look for a used trailer now and have that little bit more length I wanted.

Now what will happen when one drives into California, who knows as they are a law unto themselves. I will just carry the Arizona regs with me and hope any enterprising CHiP believes me and them.

Peter.