Burning Kingsley

[40,000 mile TC user]

I owned a Kingsley from 2001 to 2003. While I loved the concept, the actual delivered product was a disaster. My coach was built in PA, and was the first that was built with a car lift for the garage. The lift was built by an outside company and worked great. The lower bay structure which Kingsley is very proud of was plauged with rust problems from day one. Water got in everywhere. Many welds were missing large areas were never painted. The workmanship was poor.
During one of my visits, I saw a letter sent by OSHA stating that during an inspection they found employees smoking pot during breaks. I don't believe that Kingsley has a drug testing policy. They should.
My Coach was back to Kingsley 4 or five times, and I was without it for 7-8 months.

Less than 2 years after I got my coach it burned to the ground.

See pictures in the photo section. I was gone when it happened, but fellow campground neighbors took some amazing pictures.
The fire by all accounts started in the electronics cabinet, built by Kingsley and Thor, and then modified by Kingsley to add a satelite TV tuner.
My loss on this was over $ 80K.
Needless to say, I was quite disappointed.
Kingsleys response was very measured, but they were willing to build another one for only $100K more than what I originally paid.
I passed.
I am sure that others have had better experiences, but all will agree, that Kingsley cut corners at every opportunity.
I have even seen a $500K Coach built by Kingsley that has the name misspelled above the winshield. I kid you not. So much for quality control.
While they may aspire to be at the top of the TC heap, they seem much more at ease dealing with non demanding cusomers looking for a lower level product.

I hope this helps people in their evaluations.

[shinyblackpaint]

Sorry to hear and see about your Coach. Not a pretty sight.

[Warpath]

WOW! That stinks.

Great photos of a bad situation. One thing I am noticing is there is no steel structure left after the fire was out. What where they doing at the time your coach was built. Aluminum?

I see a Minnesota address for Kingsley now. Have they changed management & product? I know we have a few Kingsley owners who are happy with there units. Have they improved their product?

Thanks for the info.

[40,000 mile TC user]

Yes Warpath, there is no structure left because it burned.
The construction used in the Kingsley is as follows.
The Body is made at the Thor Factory in Middleburg PA. They make Thor's "value priced" travel trailers.
Nothing fancy here, just your garden variety $15-25K travel trailers.
The Kingsley "box" is made here.

A large layout table is used to make the wall/roof frame. It is made with 1" or 1.5" square aluminum tubing. We are not talking heavy tubing either, but probably .030" thick. Too weak for a lawn chair frame, and too heavy for a beer can. The frames are laid out with the joints MIG welded. Spacing varies, but the one I had and the one I saw being made used 3-4 foot spacing between "studs" some extra around the slide out but nothing special. Insulation is then cut and put inside the gaps in the "studs".
Plain old masking tape is used to hold all of this together.
Two people can pick up an entire wall at this stage with out straining. It is pretty floppy at this point.
The next step involves putting the luan wall board and the fiberglass layer on the wall. A really cool glue applicator puts the glue on one or both sides and these panels are then dropped into place. The wall is then run through a rolling press to squish the layers together. Any spots that will get things attached to them have thin sheet metal again taped in place before gluing the wall board on. This way the screws can bite into both the 1/8" wall board and the >.025" thick metal as well as the insulation for a "strong fit".
The total time to make a wall is approx. 1 hour, start to finish. Roof is similar.
Total cost delivered to Kingsley is probably $17,000 to $20,000.

The Floor structure uses a Lippert Components Frame made of 2X4 steel, which looks pretty strong, but is pretty flexible over the 35' length.
To this a Floor is bolted with carrige bolts. The floor is made of Home Depot 2X4s and plywood, nothing fancy here no Imported Baltic Birch... Just the stuff you would use to build a dog house with.

All this is screwed together.

A bunch of typical RV style trim molding is then applied to the corners and seams.

Nothing is particularly square or straight. If you have a Kingsley, just take out a nice Carpenters square and start
checking wall to cabinet squareness, you will be amazed.
I saw one unit owned by a guy who posts on here, which had a cabinet that was out of square over 1/2" in less than 2' !!!!

At some point if asked, I can talk about the quality of the wiring, plumbing...

I hope this helps.


This is then bolted to the Chassis and driven to Minnesota, where the lower compartments are built under the box and body. Compartment doors are added at this point. Spray cans are used to provide the. "High quality rustproof coating"
My experience was that it was neither high quality nor rustproof.

That about does it for the construction. This is up to date as of Oct. 2004.

[Blue Skies]

Wow. That is sobering. Glad no one was hurt. Thank goodness it wasn't at night while people were on board sleeping.

Didn't insurance cover your losses?

I recently asked FMCA to add a safety column to their monthly magazine to review motorhome accidents so that we can all learn and possibly prevent future disasters. Motorhomes have tremendous momentum when traveling. A car would need to travel at over 700 miles per hour to duplicate the impact crash force that a well appointed Class A has at highway speeds. Even while parked, these complex machines are potentially dangerous mixtures of fuels, electricity, water and mechanical systems. They are much more than expensive toys and without proper respect and attention, the outcome of their recreational use can be tragic.

Any lesson(s) you can share with all of us from your tragedy?

[40,000 mile TC user]

Actually, The safety aspect was one of the reasons I bought a Truck based RV. There was no way that I would want to be sitting 3 ft. behind the bumper with nothing between me and the accident like most Class A pushers. Much better to have 4,000 lbs. of engine and other structure... before an accident gets to me. Since I drove 30-40,000 miles a year, driving saftey was important to me.

As far as parked saftey is concerned, I had been hooked up at the campground for 3 days when the fire hit. Engine was cold, I was plugged in to a 50 AMP outlet. I had (4) 30 Gal. propane bottles 3 Full with valves closed, and one open 1/2 full. I also had 120 Gals. of Diesel fuel. Everything in the coach was off when I left at 8:30 AM, at 11:00 AM the fire started. Smoke was seen coming out the bathroom vent. A retired Fire Fighter was walking his dog near my coach, and smelled smoke. He tried to knock on the coach door, but it was locked. The passenger truck door was left unlocked, and when he opened it, the flames spilled out. You can see this in the pictures.
The diesel fuel didn't burn or leak.
The propane cylinders all vented as they are designed to do.
The rest you can see burned. It burned so hot that the glass melted. Coins that were in the ashtray melted. The heat went up fuel and gas were below so they were OK.
Everything was damaged by smoke and water. If more things had been in Ziplock bags and Rubbermaid containers they would have been saved from water damage.

Things I would do different.

First of all buy a coach that is really built by someone that knows what they are doing. By this I mean, a company with drawings of what they are building. Most mass produced units need to do this, many limited production coaches don't.

Kingsley could never deliver a schematic of how my coach was wired. They said, we think this is how it was done...
They had NO Load analysis on the circuits. By this I mean they did not have a list of expected loads, wire size calculations or anything to know that the wires that they were using would be adequate for the wiring layout that they chose.

To this day, I bet if every Kingsley customer asks for a schematic, none will get one, at least none will get one that actually matches what is in their coach. This is insane.

Another area that is lacking, is in workmanship. Simple things like stripping wires. If you have a 12 AWG wire that is made up of 15 strands, and during the stripping process, 3 strands are broken off. This is a 20% reduction in current carrying capacity!!! Your 10 amp rated circuit just went down to 8 amps. A more insideious problem are the conductors that are just knicked when stripping. With the vibration that these vehicles see, these will break over time, reducing the current carrying capacity even more.

Sharp edges are an even bigger problem. They can cut through the insulation and leave a short circuit.

Many wires in Kingsleys are run OK and insulated properly maybe most. But unless ALL of them are, you can have VERY serious problems. It isn't the strong links in the chain that get you in trouble, but the weak ones that will screw you.

I have seen at Kingsley holes drilled in a 1" square steel tube used as a wall stud which were not deburred that just had a piece of electrical tape wrapped around the wire to "protect" it from chafing at the razor sharp burrs in the tube???

I have seen 3 or 4 wires hooked up end to end, just because they were short of wire and needed a longer piece.

I have seen wires that were too short "stretched" to fit by running them diagonally across an open space rather than getting a longer piece.

I have seen screws driven through wires in walls, cielings and floors because nobody knew where the wires were running...

I have seen wiring fuse boxes hidden under false closet floors that nobody would ever know about, making it just about impossible to trace down a problem.

Other companies may have problems too, It is just that I know these problems from the Kingsley I had and the 8 or 9 that I have been through.


Other things I have learned:
Have an emergency exit in EVERY room.
Have a smoke detector in every room and closet. At $10 each, times 7 or 8 not very expensive.
AGREED VALUE insurance. Don't let depreciation get you.

I hope this helps. I have a background in Avionics and aircraft wiring, so some of these concepts are second nature to me, but you can not be too careful.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

.....someone point me to the pix!...I'm having a special ed. day....[I'm real interested in this FIRE situation]....who was your insurance company?....any difficulty with the underwriter?.....geof kaye

[Blue Skies]

Originally posted by KAYE RIVERCITY:
.....someone point me to the pix!...

The prior thread in this Kingsley Manufacturer Forum has these powerful photos:

Burning Kingsley

[Warpath]

Kingsley Customer

That is fantastic information about the chassis and the safety concerns that you pointed out. I bet you are right that most all of the conversion companies do not have wiring schematics for each coach, do to the custom nature of these rigs and cost. What would be interesting to here is how each one of them addresses this issue, how do they run wiring, what kind of testing do they do, how do they insure wires are properly stripped, how are wires protected from chaffing, ect..

The old me would have really hammered Kingsley for something like this. But as I mentioned before I have changed my thinking and would like to see the industry as whole succeed.

Like with any new product, over time a manufacturer is going to realize what works and what does not. Those companies that adapt and continually refine their product will survive and flourish, those that do not, will not. I also think there is some value in a company sticking to a tried and true method in building versus going way out on a limb and putting some new technology or technique out that is most likely going to fail.

I like the fact that Kingsley stepped up and tried to offer you a deal (not sure if it was good or not) but disappointed that they did not instill enough confidence in you that they are or will make a better product. And like I said maybe they have addressed some of these issues now and I would love to have a Representative jump on-line here and let us know what they are doing in 05.

Kingsley Customer you have brought up some awesome new information that alot of us have not even considered. This just makes anyone who reads this information that much more educated when they are ready to buy.

Bill

BTW: Love your avatar - burning candle, had to chuckle over that.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

......I'm going over to the Fire Chief Wednesday with your pix and asking his crew what type of fire extinguishers/system would work.......interesting burn....but very sorry it happened to you.....geof kaye

[John (C-IL)]

Holy BBQ Batman!

Thanks for the info and the pics. I think they may explain the differences in the prices from the various conversion companies. It also helps all of us know what questions to ask and what the answers to those questions should be.

Thanks again, John

Wow...some pictures. Sorry to hear of the loss of the rig. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

You bring up good points about wiring safety on rigs. Who verifies the wiring, capacity and distribution of the circuits if there is no documention supporting the manufacturing. Who also would troubleshoot the systems if there are no "as built" prints.

Just an example of what all the builders should do, and provide to their customers.
12 vdc wiring
120 VAC Wiring
Plumbing

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

.....there really are very very few legal issues having to do with the manufacture of any motorhome or boat....in terms of HVAC/Plumbing/120vac/2vdc....When I built my trailer all 120vac is in commercial code conduit metal & plastic and the 12vdc is abrasion resistant covered cable used in commercial fire equipment[it was free] plumbing [HW@108degrees air pressure driven or shore provided pressure] is in good grade of 1/2" garden hose with metal fittings and SS band clamps....there is only one waste pipe to outside from the shower and sink in pvc and clear vinal plastic pipe......toilet is all electric.....no propane in trailer.....geof kaye

[40,000 mile TC user]

It seems clear that many things will work just fine. What doesn't work is carelesness and ignorance. If the important things are done right, it does not have to be very sophisticated or exotic.
If you run wires near a sharp edge, either get rid of the sharp edge or protect the wire. Not exactly rocket science.
If you keep adding stuff to an existing circuit, check to see if the wire can handle the extra current.
Make sure that all of your connections are secure.

I just think that many manufacturers struggle to make ends meet by cutting corners.

Whether it is using inferior materials, not taking the time to design and review the proposed project.
Hiring lower cost labor or unemployable (i.e., people that can't pass drug tests other places).
Not training employees on the workmanship standards that are expected or even having workmanship expectations.
Many Coaches are delivered "not quite done".
Customers push for a delivery and manufacturers don't want to disappoint, (or more likely need that check), by missing the delivery.
This causes rushing which can't help but cause mistakes.
The lesson here is be diligent, ask questions, look at what you are buying, or check carefully what you have bought and have a great time.
That is after all why we buy or build these things. Nothing is more fun than hitting the road.

[Gary Atsma]

It seems to me that the emphasis with Kingsley is on glitz and glamour, rather than quality construction and attention to the IMPORTANT details. Are you listening, Ralph Dickenson?
Gary

[40,000 mile TC user]

At any price, these Truck Based RVs are a big investment. I think people should buy what they want. This Forum, (thanks WARPATH) Is a great way to be sure you get what you think you are getting. After all, who knows better than someone that has had one?

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....customer: I will say you are a lot quiter than I would be....you'd hear me screaming and b*tching on CNN FOX MSNBC and the senate floor.......geof kaye

[Warpath]

Before we get Congress involved and burn Kingsley at the stake, we need to be clear on some things.

It was stated that the insurance company paid the claim and I am assuming they did not go after Kingsley otherwise that would have been stated as well.

And I assuming that since you Kingsley Customer where out $80,000 you would have sued Kingsley as well if they where determined to be at fault.

So was Kingsley determined to be at fault?

I would think that that insurance agency crawled all over the remaining part of that rig looking at the wiring to determine if it was poorly installed to determine who or what is at fault. And again if they did not sue, they must not have found anything?

There are a ton of components in rig that are manufacturered by other companies, any one of which could have a defect and cause something like this to happen. Did they ever come up with a ultimate cause of the fire?

I am not defending Kingsley, they can /or did /or will do that themselves. I also wasn't there and I do not know the whole story, and I don't know Kingsley side of what happened.

I think Kingsley Customer brought up some excellent points about wiring, something we really have not keyed on in the past. It is definetly something for a buyer to look into when they are spec'ing out a new coach.

I did alot of research since this post came about; I talked to some other Kingsley owners to see what they thought about this and their coach. I will say all of them are extremely happy with their rigs and the workmanship that went in them. I also spoke to my builder, looked into what they do and came away even more impressed than I was before (I know that seems impossible the way I blubber on about them)

So before we form a lynch mob we have to have all of the details, and unfortunetly, I don't think that is possible.

Bill

[40,000 mile TC user]

My responses are measured because it's my stomach lining that will get a hole in it if I continue to be aggrivated.

As far a suing Kingsley, They are broke so even if you win, what do you get?

My first call when I got to the scene and saw what had happened was to my Insurance Company and left the info. with them.
Then I called Ralph at Kingsley. He said he couldn't believe it and that he would send his ex-partner/ brother in law out to see it the next day, since he lived near there.
His brother in law was an fireman at some point, and we walked through the wreckage and he took some pictures.
He said that the fire obviously started in the Kenworth under the hood somewhere.
Nobody had seen the pictures that I have posted here yet because they were being developed at that point and nobody knew they existed.
The Fire Inspector had unspecified origin listed as the cause of the fire.
Ralph at this point said if I had a beef it should be with Kenworth, not Kingsley.
I went through the task of making an inventory of all the stuff that was in the rig. It took almost 1 week to sift through the stuff.
The insurance adjuster came out, but they are car adjusters and they know a fender bender but not something like this.
It was then sent to a Sr. Fire Investigator who tried to find the cause...
At this point the pictures that I have posted became available. Everybody got a copy.
Kingsley at this point avoided my insurance company's calls and didn't want to talk to anyone. They did continue to talk to me about replacement cost...

About a year ago, Kingsley inquired about who had the wreck and could they buy it, they told me they needed a generator and some other parts that they could reuse.
I gave them the insurance company's number. The company would not sell the unit, but is continuing to hold it. Perhaps they do intend to sue. I just don't know.

A bigger issue here is whether insurance companies will continue to want to insure units made by these small companies.

[KAYE RIVERCITY]

....Customer: ...you have thought this out rather well!....better than I would have!....I'd be out for a hunk of someones posterior at this point.....A BIG CHUNK! Or at least having a "private contractor" ,reasonably priced , of course, with someones address.....and a gallon of regular unleaded....You are a better man than I-handling this situation.....I get all redneck just thinking about/looking at the pixs.....and you got to be out some major bucks on a loss like that....Insurance companies will squeeze every dime they can get and use any loophole possible to get out of paying for a loss-A friend is a loss adjuster and he squeeks when he walks......Best of Luck on this one.....OY!...geof kaye